https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Tue, 14 Apr 2026 22:12:34 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296823 Sat, 17 Dec 2022 16:19:52 +0000 Olive Green 2296823@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Always enjoy a wide ranging fashion read, so thank you, UmmLila. They trigger very interesting discussions. &nbsp;<br />Janet and her expansion of Presence on sidewalks, and other right of way issues! Yes!&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296748 Sat, 17 Dec 2022 02:12:17 +0000 DonnaF 2296748@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>When I went into Sephora a few years back, I felt like I was worse than invisible; I was actively avoided. The store had just opened for the day so it wasn’t like it was crowded or anything. It was nearly empty except for the multitude of sales associates. I’ll never set foot in there again.</p> <p>OTOH, when it seems like smaller, older Asian women are targets for violence in the US these days, invisibility has its benefits. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296745 Sat, 17 Dec 2022 01:28:44 +0000 rachylou 2296745@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>An interesting thought. I think of both style and beauty as things that take effort and that are quite separate from each other.</p> <p>The idea of older people being invisible bothers me. I see older people, but it’s also true I’m the person who helps elderly people in the street. That takes a fearlessness I’ve noticed. I’ve seen people run away from those situations. And young people talk to me as well… I sometimes find that strange… </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296740 Sat, 17 Dec 2022 00:41:49 +0000 Sally 2296740@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I remember an older lady telling me once how she escaped a mob in a foreign country by jumping at the back of a covered bullock cart and slipping away unnoticed. She said ‘you know there are advantages in being old’ I think she was talking about invisibility. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296718 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 21:39:12 +0000 Jenni NZ 2296718@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It was an awesome article UmmLila, thank you so much for sharing as a subscriber!<br /> I related to what she said about weight and like what Janet said about that. I cannot get out of my head what I weighed when I married at 25. I am not trying to get back to it but the figure is stuck in my head.<br /> I also really like what Vildy, Jonesy, Judy and Janet say about the ageing and invisibility thing. I definitely partially ignored older people when I was younger- only really interacting with ones I knew personally or had to see professionally.<br /> I don’t feel invisible in a one on one situation as I get outfit compliments almost every day at work from all ages and both genders- women more, but often enough men as well, younger as well as older. So I feel “seen”. But walking down a street or in a bar or similar, can feel invisible- I don’t mind too much. When I retire I won’t get the compliments from work so had best get used to it! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296709 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:57:40 +0000 ophelia 2296709@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Google any variation of “older women invisible” &amp; you’ll find a lot of material on it.<br /> It does affect older men too but not to the same degree.<br /> Unfortunately in situations where a lot is at stake, older women sometimes have to get aggressive to get something done or to protect themselves—hence the meme of “crazy old lady.” </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296699 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 19:22:32 +0000 judy 2296699@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Janet, I don't miss the sidewalk experience where they acted as though they could literally walk THROUGH me, as if I was completely invisible!&nbsp; And it was more the young women than the men walking two or three abreast, or one with their dog, who just didn't think they should have to yield to another human being.&nbsp; Don't we all have to yield?&nbsp; It's just a human experience.&nbsp; Or all the doors I held for them and not even a thank you? Again, just acknowledge another human.&nbsp; It made me a bit cranky, as you can see, so maybe I didn't accept it as well as I thought .&nbsp; &nbsp; Just adding that like you, I learned to just keep on walking at times...think Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy: "I'm walking here!" though it was silent.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296694 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 19:08:58 +0000 Janet 2296694@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Judy, I get it and I agree. Put me in a bar trying to get a bartender’s attention to order when they’re young and the other patrons are their peers, I feel quite invisible. And don’t get me started on walking on somewhat crowded city sidewalks, where sometimes a single woman (particularly not young and cute) can nearly be run over. I’ve taken to holding my line and making younger people be the ones who yield a bit. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296692 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 19:04:51 +0000 judy 2296692@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Jonesy, I liked your nuanced look at this.&nbsp; Though I think the "invisibility" she's referring to is more than just straight men's gaze.&nbsp; It's an ageism thing.&nbsp; As she said: "You're invisible as an old person".&nbsp; I lived for 16 years in an urban neighborhood that was now going through gentrification and so was almost totally populated by young, single people.&nbsp; I loved living there, but as someone with grey hair and old enough to be their parent, or even grandparent in some cases (and there were very very few of us) I couldn't help but notice how invisible I was to them. Especially when I was with my adult sons, who got readily acknowledged and talked to, where I did not.&nbsp; &nbsp;And really when I was that age, I remembered how old I would have seemed to my past self.&nbsp; I would not have been relevant or on my radar.&nbsp; It's literally like they look right through you.&nbsp; And it did help to accept that, as she said in the article. Now I live in a rural area mostly populated with people around my age, and it's completely different.&nbsp; Suddenly I'm visible again!&nbsp; Both have their advantages and disadvantages . </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296573 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 19:32:29 +0000 Angie 2296573@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Laughing at<b> Suntiger</b>!</p> <p>Smiling at <b>Vildy</b> :)</p> <p>Applauding&nbsp;<b>Jonesy</b> for expressing those thoughts so eloquently, succinctly and wisely!&nbsp;</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296552 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:54:07 +0000 Helena 2296552@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Following this thread with interest and Jonesy, I love what you've said ... amen to all of it!</p> <p>Always so interesting to read these "fashion/philosophy" type articles and hear everyone's different takes - thanks so much for sharing it, Ummlila. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296550 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:50:55 +0000 Suz 2296550@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Hear, hear, <b>Jonesy</b>! I like that nuanced perspective and it's very true -- I guess that's why I used the word "relative" in brackets to modify invisibility -- it's only invisibility to <b>some</b>, and in the meantime, we remain visible to others.&nbsp;</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296543 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:34:47 +0000 Jonesy 2296543@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It's an interesting article; thanks for sharing it! I have read her work over the years in the <i>New Yorker</i> and enjoy her perspective.&nbsp;</p> <p>I do have thoughts on the whole "invisibility" thing: I am a person who chafes against lots of blanket statements, so I think the leap from "<b>I</b> feel invisible as I'm aging" to "<b>all women</b> are invisible as they age" is too simplistic and kind of misses the mark, at least for me. Also, whenever I heard this I think, invisible to whom? To younger, straight men? Perhaps. But younger, straight men don't make up all of humanity! My sense is that, at the very least, lots of women continue to look at and assess each other's style (if they are into style), no matter the age. So to say that "women are invisible as we age" is to erase women as viewers/seers of other women, which I'm not keen on either. Then there is the piece about equating visibility with being perceived as sexually attractive. Yes, now that I'm in my 50s, I am not seen as a sexual object by many viewers, e.g., younger, straight men (and I am very happy about that!), but that does not mean I'm invisible in a general sense.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296518 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 14:03:16 +0000 Dee 2296518@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Lots of interesting ideas presented in this article about the complexities of being a woman. I like the notion that she sees fashion and in particular how styling allows women to create their own beauty so they can feel more empowered about how they see themselves in the world. We get to define by our choices in fashion how we want to be seen. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296500 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 11:37:49 +0000 Anonymous 2296500@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I for one am very much looking forward to invisibility! Just a couple days ago I had to tell a Complete Stranger that asking if I was married was Not An Appropriate Question :/ </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296494 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 09:38:07 +0000 Vildy 2296494@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I constantly read about this invisibility thing but even in my 70s I get frequent grins and appreciative comments from much, much younger men about my outfits. In a typical supermarket, I will ask for help finding something and guys with sappy grins will happily walk me over to the exact position in the correct aisle. Plus I've had women in a parking lot stop me with compliments about my outfit.&nbsp;</p> <p>OTOH, when I don't want to be bothered or noticed, all my life I've simply worn shapeless dun colored clothing and get ignored.&nbsp;</p> <p>ETA:&nbsp; what I'm trying to say is that if a person wants to bring something to a social situation I think that will show - they are recognizing other people and in turn those people will recognize them.&nbsp;</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296479 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:56:52 +0000 Carla 2296479@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thanks for the link to the article, UmmLila. &nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296478 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:06:43 +0000 Suz 2296478@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><b>Irina,</b> I was also focused on the comments about aging.&nbsp;</p> <p>I like my (relative) invisibility, too. But I also still get compliments and like those! Do I contradict myself? I am large, I contain multitudes... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296471 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:29:21 +0000 Irina 2296471@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><b></b>Yo<b>u are invisible as an old person. It helps to accept that,” she said. “I like to be invisible<br /></b>I like that! I don’t mind if I’m invisible to others, less pressure for an introvert like me. And yet, I still receive compliments either on my outfits or individual items like a Marimekko dress an old COS sweater I wore to work today. Are we truly invisible as we age?&nbsp;<div>I guess I think about it more than weigh issues/comments/body positivity. Oh, well, horses for courses.&nbsp;</div> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296463 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:11:21 +0000 LJP 2296463@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I’m not offended or put off by her weight comment - just found it unexpected . </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296461 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 02:56:35 +0000 Sloper 2296461@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I took away similar thought’s to Janet’s (as far as the body image/weight comments).</p> <p>I do like the paragraph UmmLila has quoted above. &nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296457 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 02:27:11 +0000 Janet 2296457@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>OK, the second link works! Interesting piece, and I’d be curious to read her writing now. </p> <p>I think her comments on her own size call back to her observations about aging and invisibility. I didn’t sense judgment there, just a bit of admission of her own vulnerability to old mindsets of “what I weighed when I was 13.” I think it’s kind of astounding how many of us women can remember what we weighed or what size we were at a given age, and many use it as some sort of benchmark. For as far as we’ve come in so many ways and for as enlightened and body-positive as we may be, all that societal admiration for thinness is still ingrained in us, as a whole.</p> <p>(Admittedly I read that piece and then went down the rabbit hole of reading about Kirstie Alley, and then winter coats, and then Michelle Obama’s latest style arc, which I find very interesting!) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296451 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 01:30:14 +0000 Jaime 2296451@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thanks for sharing! Love the quote, and will be thinking about it. I have read and highly recommend Cleopatra's Nose.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296445 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 01:04:10 +0000 Suz 2296445@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Fascinating piece -- thank you for sharing. Completely agree with what you say about the interviewer's choices perhaps being more about her than about Thurman herself. After seeing this, I really want to read Thurman's biography of Colette. It strikes me that the comments about weight and beauty might be elaborated there in an interesting way. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296436 Thu, 15 Dec 2022 00:18:02 +0000 UmmLila (Lisa) 2296436@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I posted the article as a "gift" link, which means anyone should be able to read it via the link.</p> <p>To your point on the comments about weight: I know the body positivity movement means that it has become rightfully unacceptable to remark on anyone else's size, but it also seems to mean that people can't discuss their own physical insecurities publicly without getting called out and told to be positive before others. That's both good and bad. </p> <p>As far as this article goes, I am assuming that it was condensed down from a series of conversations, and, taking a step back to the interviewer who framed and wrote the story, I did find the choice of that material for inclusion incongruous next to the more analytical aspects of Thurman's work as a writer.</p> <p>One doesn't usually read of men's physical insecurities in interviews about their intellectual oeuvres.</p> <p>Not entirely related -- I am somehow minded of TS Eliot's J. Alfred Prufrock and his self-talk about aging:<br /><i>"</i><i>And indeed there will be time</i><div><i>To wonder, 'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'</i><br /></div><div><i>Time to turn back and descend the stair,</i><br /></div><div><i>With a bald spot in the middle of my hair —</i><br /></div><div><i>(They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')</i><br /></div><div><i>My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,</i><br /></div><div><i>My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin —</i><br /></div><div><i>(They will say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')</i></div> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296432 Wed, 14 Dec 2022 23:56:18 +0000 LJP 2296432@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I went to it through another link when I was googling Thurman . Not sure you can read it unless you are a NYT subscriber . </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296431 Wed, 14 Dec 2022 23:53:01 +0000 UmmLila (Lisa) 2296431@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Here is the link again:&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/14/style/judith-thurman.html?unlocked_article_code=R5msFh8vqtYCH2S3Bt3VME6vWHKXA4r99FPJtJwxVL1lNrV-PSX0uzBsy1XyB21G5ALgtPHiQUKjLLTXj9HKbZjD5fREDHXBvted7g9hbdRZxUxqj2FmzJrVV9TjP-of0UiIEG2Wb5f1rzB2QqDpjJGzxdvoDV417YZ-KHCSA5lNGUqvnWL2M5HIaKsrW3nEaompLq2EmsVOd_rwKMc2x6HCHi2Yveo6aW_xX44Y-eNT9RBHMw9tOGeWg24w3Ea5TPInDtIMNPGuT2k-YEQAJJTXe63fkAoBsP38JG5b4Bo4uQy5dTxDthsgXIkxzA2UjR_ijCrq&amp;smid=share-url">https://www.nytimes.com/2022/1.....vqtYCH2S3B</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296429 Wed, 14 Dec 2022 23:45:10 +0000 Janet 2296429@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I’d like to read more but for some reason this isn’t working as a link on my phone. Just me?? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296428 Wed, 14 Dec 2022 23:43:01 +0000 LJP 2296428@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Reading the article in full left me with a different reaction than the quote in isolation . Her comments about weight were a bit odd . Anyways , I’m familiar with her as a TNY writer- and now I want to see her home ! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/article-fluent-in-the-language-of-style#post-2296424 Wed, 14 Dec 2022 22:25:30 +0000 UmmLila (Lisa) 2296424@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I have not read anything by Judith Thurman, but now I want to after reading this <a rel="nofollow">NYT article</a>.</p> <p>One bit:<br />“I’d rather talk about style than beauty. Style is the self-conscious attempt to create beauty, and that engages technique. It engages experience, knowledge, worldliness. What makes fashion interesting is not about what’s hot. It’s about a sense of originality that comes through as a language that stays clear of the trite. A language that is self-conscious about itself, self-conscious about received ideas. Vulgarity is a form of unconsciousness, really.”</p>