https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Thu, 09 Apr 2026 23:08:39 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-302988 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:53:46 +0000 cloud9 302988@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'm late in the game, but still confused to what is the definition of FRUMP? I know it's the eye of the beholder, just as beauty is. However, according to dictionary.com:</p> <p>Frump<br /> –noun<br /> 1. a person who is dowdy, drab, and unattractive.<br /> 2. a dull, old-fashioned person. </p> <p>I personally ( and I believe many of you), are focusing on the definition of #1. to me, not in a latest trend/style doesn't equal frump, corporate setting or not. I also believe a picture is worth 1000 words. I could show you two pictures of basic items, white buttonfront blouse, black pencil skirt, black chunky shoes, one frumpy, and one not. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-302972 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:14:30 +0000 Katja 302972@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <blockquote><p>At the core looking frumpy comes down to a lack intention. </p> <p>Take a very basic simple outfit--say a white top and jeans. There is the potential there for both great frump and killer style. It all comes down to the details. I feel that it is the same idea with dated/retro. Retro needs intent, dated just happens.</p></blockquote> <p>This really resonates for me. One of the first things that I did when I started to try to dress better was absolutely abjure t-shirts and jeans, in which I felt sloppy, shapeless and as if I weren't trying.</p> <p>Now I'm starting (gradually!) to get back into t-shirts and jeans, but now the t-shirts are fitted, with jewel or scoop necks, the jeans fit and are long enough, and I'm wearing a belt and/or jewelry and/or a scarf and/or a jacket, and it feels like an entirely different look.</p> <blockquote><p>My mother is the queen of frump, everything is from Land's End, pants are way short and she's proud of her frump! I think to her, frump = woman of substance. </p></blockquote> <p>Denise's mom is one of the most wonderful people in the entire world. It doesn't matter what she wears :-). </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-302969 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:05:29 +0000 Velma 302969@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thanks for the vote of confidence, rhubarbgirl. I was in an Eeyore kind of mood when I wrote that previous comment. I wore the shoes to my meeting and felt fine. I think they have a slight 1940s retro vibe--although I am more or less a goth who aged out, so that may be going on, too! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-302742 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:12:25 +0000 Laura (rhubarbgirl) 302742@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Velma, you may make a liar of me - I love those shoes you posted; they have a Victorian/goth vibe which is fun. To my eye they do look less frumpy than a typical mary jane, with the heel and the two straps. I still don't think they work for business formal, but for funky/creative business I can see them working. In any case, I'm sure you make them look killer. </p> <p>Some of those comments on Corporette were tending toward ageist - it is a bit frustrating that as we age we have to worry not just about what our bodies are doing, but whether we're up-to-date with trends and such so not to look frumpy. Men certainly are required to do less diligence as far as that's concerned. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-301768 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:45:24 +0000 Deb 301768@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Angie - I agree with the hipbone length jacket, totally! What I referred to are those that cut right across the widest part of a woman's bottom. Not hipbone - which can be very cute and flattering, but sliced right across the equator. :o)</p> <p>Maya - my longer suit jackets are not 1:1 ratio, since the skirt that shows below the jacket is shorter than the length of the jacket ... if that makes any sense to you?</p> <p>When all is said and done, I do agree with the comment above that "frump is in the eye of the beholder." Very hard to define, and we all bring our own perspective to it. But interesting input! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300849 Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:47:17 +0000 Velma 300849@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Oooo, many of the comments attached to the Corporette post were nasty, especially re: middle-aged women. I am soon-to-be 43. I guess we had all better disappear, with our distasteful mary janes and frizzy hair! :-)</p> <p>I have this pair of Clarks in two colors:<br /> <a href="http://www.6pm.com/clarks-passion-black-leather" rel="nofollow">http://www.6pm.com/clarks-passion-black-leather</a><br /> I love them. For me they are 10-hour shoes, despite the heel (about 2.5", I think) and I wear them often with more casual pencil skirts and flared skirts/dresses. According to this post, I am completely frumpy, since low heels, chunky heels, and mary janes are all verboten! </p> <p>Oh, sigh. Now I have to think about that every time I put on those shoes. I am self-employed but sometimes meet with clients, with dress somewhere on the more polished/creative end of business casual. I'll be spending the day in a client's office tomorrow, in those shoes--feeling a little less smashing than usual. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300844 Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:23:53 +0000 Polly (thunalata) 300844@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>On quality: there's a fashion programme in the UK which features at one point a head to head competition between a stylist styling designer clothes costing thousands of pounds and another (Gok Wan) styling high street versions costing in the low hundreds. It is judged by an audience of every day people (often it's held in a shopping mall or similar) and Gok Wan's collection mostly wins. He has an infectious enthusiasm for fashion and an eye for detail and I find it fun to watch him pull this off.</p> <p>The bit they don't talk about, though, is that these creations of his are cobbled together purely for that moment. I can't imagine you could wear them more than once without needing drastic first aid measures. And forget about when they have to be cleaned... The designer versions, by comparison, may look less glitzy, but it is clear that they are much better quality and will last much longer.</p> <p>I also remember Joan Collins being shown 3 or 4 similar blouses(?) and being asked to spot the designer label one. She couldn't - and was charming and gracious about it - but I bet she'd have had no problem if trying them on or more, having them for some time.</p> <p>Quality is not just in how good something looks but how good it looks, time after time after time. I do know, though, that a designer label is no guarantee of quality or longevity. I suppose I'm using it as shorthand for 'well designed, good quality materials and long lasting'. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300803 Sun, 20 Feb 2011 08:51:31 +0000 RoseandJoan 300803@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>If I continue on the career path I'm on now I will end up in the world of formal business attire ((terrifying)) with regards to the pencil skirt and flats issue I think it really does depend on the skirt, a beautifully tapered pencil skirt hitting below the knee looks amazing with flats and bare legs but in a formal business office the skirt is likely to be more loose fitting and hose are required so in my opinion heels help to beet the frump factor but are not requisite. (It's also important to note that in this instance the skirt is frumpy and requires extra styling to lift the look and not the flats.)<br /> Examples of office appropriate skirts, would you wear these with hose and chunky flats?<br /> <a href="http://www.austinreed.co.uk/fcp/categorylist/dept/sale_womens-skirts" rel="nofollow">http://www.austinreed.co.uk/fc.....ens-skirts</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300659 Sun, 20 Feb 2011 00:32:10 +0000 lynne 300659@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>What great comments and explanations. I can't define frump, but I know it when I see it. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300622 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 22:35:06 +0000 Christie 300622@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I appreciate your comment regarding quality, Angie. Blog photos are good for seeing proportions, colors, patterns but you're right, quality is hard to judge in a picture.</p> <p>As a thrifter, I see the gamut of quality and only purchase the better stuff, because I can get the bargain quality at the same price on sale at Target. (I think my Goodwill is getting expensive, even to the point that it may not be worth it, especially if I shop good sales at Macy's.) Thrifting only pays when I can purchase Ann Taylor/Loft, Banana Republic, various Macy's labels ... those brands are easily found at Goodwill.</p> <p>I really don't shop much ... its been over a year since I went into Macy's. I do pop into Goodwill once a week. Last week, I found some darling red Me Too ballet flats for $8 (brand new). </p> <p>I'm curious, and maybe should paste this into its own thread. But this leads me to another question. What kind of prices could I find on the sale rack at Macy's for a knitwear piece made with cotton/modal like a detailed summer top? At Goodwill, I can find these (good labels) for around $8. What about a top made of merino wool? Goodwill, $10. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300596 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 21:27:34 +0000 catgirl 300596@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Love "commentariat" too! And Desmo's quote. I agree with Maya that a lot of the comments on the site were very subjective opinions and not that helpful - but thinking about it all did help me in some ways.</p> <p>Mo wearing my wrap dress is a perfect example: frumpy on me, fab on her - and yet it technically "fits" both of us. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300571 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:15 +0000 Angie 300571@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Such great comments here and I really resonate with many of them.Thanks, Una!</p> <p>Mo, I'm glad you're paying attention to the drape of garments. That makes me happy :)</p> <p>Polly, thank you.</p> <p>Maya, I really like that word: “commentariat” </p> <p>Deb, shorter women can look killer in hip bone jackets to my eye! And believe it or not, in many instances a pencil skirt can look *more* hip with the right low heels and flats :)</p> <p>Desmo, I loved what you said here: "Retro needs intent, dated just happens”. Brilliant. </p> <p>Una, I’m on Team Fluevog for sure, even though I don’t own any. I 100% believe that Fluevog makes funky fab shoes! But many of the styles are not formal-corporate. Instead, they are playful and erring on the side of casual. Does that make sense? They can absolutely pass for business casual if the elements of the outfit are right though.</p> <p>Frump is not just one specific thing – but a sum of its parts. The same dress can look frumpy on one person and totally hip on someone else. We are back to the same thing – HOW are you wearing it and WHO is wearing it. I look frumpy in a wrap dress since I *cannot* fill it out. But put forum member Kari in the same wrap dress and she looks like a glowing goddess. Put me in an angular button down shirt with srunched up sleeves and skinnies and I pull off the look. On others, this would look frumpy. </p> <p>If I had to boil it down to a few things that increase the frump factor, this is how I see it: </p> <p>o The length and fit of your clothing – tops and bottoms.<br /> o You hair style<br /> o Your watch and eyewear </p> <p>Okay. I think you’ve all heard enough from me on the subject. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300548 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:35:16 +0000 Janet 300548@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think the "I give up" look is a hallmark of frump. Well said!</p> <p>I'd rather see someone who seems to be trying, even if it's a little too hard or missing the mark, than someone who seems to not care at all. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy/page/2#post-300544 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:31:08 +0000 lyn* 300544@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Definitely, lack of caring is very frumpy... makes me feel kinda bad for some of my colleagues who are in that slump... I always invite them shopping in the nicest possible way I can. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300541 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:29:18 +0000 Maya 300541@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Janet, that's what I mean. It seems like everyone is just listing things they don't personally like or that aren't appropriate for a corporate environment. That is not "frumpy," it's just personal taste and appropriateness. Of course mary janes and colored tights look silly with a suit, but it's not really "frumpy," it's just inappropriate for the outfit and the occasion.</p> <p>I work in an ad agency that shares floor space with a law firm, so I see quite a mix of dress codes every day. One of the lawyers came in wearing a baggy, long beige cardigan with ill fitting, too-short slacks and clunky black shoes (with her white socks showing, since the pants were too short). She looked like she was just going to sink into the ground (and she is tall, so that is hard to accomplish). That kind of "I don't care" or "I give up" look is just the epitome of frumpy to me. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300538 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:29:12 +0000 lyn* 300538@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>AH! My bad. Pannus. Two n's. Sorry. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300534 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:24:03 +0000 Maya 300534@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Lyn, I had to google panus and this is the first result to come up (not work or family friendly....)</p> <p><a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=panus" rel="nofollow">http://www.urbandictionary.com.....term=panus</a></p> <p>...I assume that's not what you meant though. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300532 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:23:57 +0000 Janet 300532@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>On the side topic of where a jacket ends, I think it depends very strongly on body type! A jacket that skims the bottom of my bum is a disaster, because that is the widest part of me. However, a lot of women don't look good in a jacket that hits above the hip, and that's a look I can usually rock because of my small waist.</p> <p>I read through that frump thread (trying to skip the unfortunate snarky parts), and was surprised at many of the opinions. Large jewelry? Wedge shoes? Huh?</p> <p>I associate frump with shapeless garments, dull colors and textures, and clothing that is beyond it's expiration date in terms of style and condition. I do have some specific things that call "frump!" to my eye: </p> <p>-sleeve lengths that hit midway down the upper arm on all but the most shapely arms<br /> -holiday themed garments<br /> -elastic waist pants<br /> -old-school sweatshirts and sweatpants, especially the ones with elastic at the ankle </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300530 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:20:57 +0000 lyn* 300530@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I find frumpy - bad poof hair that looks like the person never took any care of it. I've seen this on beautifully dressed women. SPEND SOME TIME ON THE HAIR! &gt;__&gt; It sort of bothers me because it throws off their whole outfit!</p> <p>Also frumpy: really really high waisted pants that sit above someone's panus. I understand we all come in different shapes and sizes, but ... it just looks weird. And tucked in heavy sweaters. These people usually wear high waisted pants around their panus with a heavy heavy sweater. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300516 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:05:16 +0000 Maya 300516@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Funny, I always preferred jackets to hit at the hip. Any longer and you get the dreaded 1:1 ratio, unless you are very tall and long-legged. I find that...frumpy, for lack of a better term.</p> <p>The reason I can't read Corporette is because the commentariat seems to have no sense of what is an opinion vs. what is actually true. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300510 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:46:51 +0000 Deb 300510@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I believe that, as in most things - frumpiness is in the eye of the beholder, and there are exceptions to every rule. </p> <p>Having prefaced my remarks with this, and specifically speaking in the context of business attire ... :o) ... I think that it's rare to find a woman in a pencil skirt and flats who can carry it off. If a person is petite, in height and size, and they wear the pencil skirt at the top of the kneecap, I've seen it work. But to my eye, the balance of a figure is off if the pencil skirt in question provides a lot of visual impact in terms of length and width, while paired with visually diminutive flats.</p> <p>My pet peeve with business attire is a suit with the jacket's hemline cutting straight across a woman's hips. Bad with skirts ... *worse* with pants, since the two suit pieces are disproportionate in relation to one another. It's so unfortunate that most suits on the market include jackets in that awkward length - but it *is* possible to find longer-lined jackets. I have two serious suits - one skirt suit, one pants suit - with jackets that skim the bottom of the bum. When I found each of them, I didn't even look at the price tag! I knew that these were the most flattering look, and worth the investment. Years later, I still trot them out for important meetings/events. </p> <p>But in any case, as I mentioned above, everyone has their own perspective and, in the end, we wear what we know works best for us. :o) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300474 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:50:02 +0000 Mo 300474@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I found it weird that someone equated heavy, dated makeup with frump. To me frump is the opposite - disheveled if anything! Not overly made up. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300469 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:46:20 +0000 catgirl 300469@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Angie, I do like Corporette for its perspective on my profession. I think even in a professional business context some of her tips need to be taken with a grain of salt. Are Fluevogs frumpy? Tricia and I don't think so! I wear mine to court and feel just fine. And I completely agree with all of you here on the pencil skirt and heels issue! Nor did she mention boots as an option.</p> <p>I actually found the comments more provocative, though - did anyone notice the person who commented on weight? I found that quite offensive. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300464 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:38:42 +0000 medusa 300464@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'm imagining a professional woman in a business-formal skirt suit, but with colored tights and Mary Janes. I think that would look frumpy. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300457 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:11:50 +0000 Desmo April 300457@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>At the core looking frumpy comes down to a lack intention. There are all sorts if details that can add up to a frumpy look but I really believe central problem is that someone has just given up. Fashion moves and is always changing, inspiration and creativity comes from what is going on around us.</p> <p>Take a very basic simple outfit--say a white top and jeans. There is the potential there for both great frump and killer style. It all comes down to the details. I feel that it is the same idea with dated/retro. Retro needs intent, dated just happens. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300452 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:52:02 +0000 Angie 300452@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Maya, I know that it sounds like the blogger is commenting on frumpiness in general, but it's really within the context of that specialized business environment, which is Kat's readership. </p> <p>I wear flats and low heels all the time, most of the time, and I know I don't look frumpy. If I did, I wouldn't be wearing the combination and my credibility as a style professional would be at stake. If you're in the formal business environment and you can't wear heels, then you have to wear low heels or dressy flats and make the best of it. I have clients like that too </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300446 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:33:20 +0000 Maya 300446@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think the problem I have with the article and the comments is that they have no relationship to the original intent, which was to explain frumpiness. </p> <p>Colored tights and mary janes, or pencil skirts with low heels might not be appropriate for a corporate setting, but they aren't "frumpy." I also question whether pencil skirts and low or chunky heels is really that inappropriate. There are so many kinds of shoes out there that fall into that category, and there are also lots of women in the world who can't wear heels--even for a few seconds. What then?</p> <p>One of my colleagues is a former lawyer who had to renew her license a few months ago in court. She had to come to work dressed in a suit, which NEVER happens in my office, but I wouldn't say she looked frumpy just because she wasn't dressed to the norm. </p> <p>There are plenty of outfits that are perfectly appropriate, but not stylish at all, especially in less creative business casual settings. I'm picturing khakis, clunky shoes, ill fitting buttondowns, and a messy ponytail. Technically this is following the "business casual" code for most work environments (in the sense that the person would probably never be called out on it), but it is INCREDIBLY frumpy. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300439 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:21:42 +0000 Mo 300439@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I am starting to come around on the higher end garments idea. Not price-wise, but quality. I am looking at how things drape and hold their shape more now. I think that can really lead to frump - badly made clothing that puckers or otherwise doesn't lie well against the body. Also thin constructions, even in t shirts, can make quite a difference. Hmmm, good things to be thinking about. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300434 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:16:17 +0000 Polly (thunalata) 300434@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Fascinating, Angie! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/a-fascinating-discussion-on-what-makes-outfits-frumpy#post-300432 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:07:03 +0000 Angie 300432@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Kat from Corporette (the blogger) is fab and has a meaningful perspective into a very niche market of fashion and style - the conservative formal business environment. Think Wall Street, a formal Law Office or Accounting Office. I have a few clients in this environment and for the most part the reasoning makes sense, given the context. Context is *everything*.</p> <p>Now, take these so called frumpy assumptions and pop them into a more creative business environment, or even a casual and conservative one - and things change. Remembering that effective execution is key, wearing flats with skirts and dresses can be killer. </p> <p>As far as expensive clothes go - I'll leave you with a thought. From a photograph, which is what we see on blogs, online and in mags - you cannot make a judgment call on the quality of the items. Things generally look better end than what they really are. And this is what we see. I clean out closets for a living. Well made stuff stands out, and launders well - this is what you see in real life. This is not to say that people can't look great on a tight budget or when they thrift - you know I believe that it can be done. Ladies on this forum have proved that. But it's a skill for sure. </p>