I don't like that! I'm a feminist too and I think it's a little bit ridiculous term. Like, if I dress with a dress I'm more women than if I dress with pants and a t-shirt?
Tomboy, butch, girly, womanly, even "androgynous" are terms that don't do it for me. I admit that I use them sometimes but try not to. I liked the "soft edge/hard edge" that Angie proposed better.
It's not that I'm manly, I prefer a hard edge, for example.

I wish there were new terms for those types of fashion, not gender based.

"I do strive to be sexy... without being sexualized." Hmm. This is sort of a foreign concept to me. I'd always figured that if a woman dressed in a sexy way, that she was tacitly agreeing to being sexualized, objectified. Perhaps that's part of the reason I find blatantly sexy dress to be disdainful. I would say perhaps I am typically American, but then again, it seems that most American women think that sexy/attractive to the opposite sex is all that matters. I guess I have always dressed in a way that makes me feel powerful, and if a man found that attractive, then that was a bonus (and I found one that thinks stompy boots are where it's at!).

This thread has certainly given me a lot to unpack from my own psyche.

Perhaps we are defining sexy in different ways, Echo. I'm not dressing provocatively, not am I on the prowl, and it certainly doesn't mean men should feel free to hit on me. But somehow I do feel powerful and sexy in what I wear - even jeans and tees - and I think that makes all the difference to my mental state.

I think you are right, IK, And perhaps I am self-limiting in my definition of sexy.

I think it's a fine line. You want to look good, but not too good. Alluring but not provocative. And sometimes, no matter what, you can't win.

ETA The whole "trying too hard" thing irks me.

When I go to Home Depot while in the middle of a project and have on old gardening clothes and mud on my face, I am often told I am sexy. Go figure.

Ah sexy. I'm kind of with IK on this I think. I don't think of sexy dressing as necessarily about men, or that there is nothing else going on in someone's head, but simply that they are publicly confident and choose to strut their stuff. And like it's been mentioned, very very different looks can make someone feel powerful and attractive in that way.

I like to think of myself as pretty sex-positive, and admit that at times the somewhat puritanical vibe of the forum with regard to expressions of sexuality in dress is very different than what I've found on other corners of the interwebs were women hang out together. But I remind myself it's a diverse group, with many different takes on this. I do have to say I always wince when someone uses the word cheap or trashy with regard to the sexuality of dress (not how much something costs). I don't think women should be equated with trash regardless of what they choose to wear. I don't know why it always pings me, but it does.

Before i read other responses, to me it is a starched petticoats, bosom armoured, sort of partiarchal stamp of approval. Matronly yes. but also top heavy... not just literally. it has a faint air of judgement. This is how a woman 'should' be kind of judgement.

off to read now. Una, you ask the most engaging questions.

I must say, it pings me too. I also find a disparaging view of body types that aren't preferred disheartening. People can be built differently, dress differently, be educated differently and find sexual power or attractiveness in different ways and all be beautiful and equally worthy. While everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion in life it bothers me to come here and hear my body type or 'types' I have been labeled in life many times (both coming from love/admiration and as a diss by different people) discussed in stereotypes here. I have a girlish face, a rounded hour-glass(ish) body and a girlish spirit with an old soul. All of which I sometimes love and sometimes don't. None of that makes me less intelligent, less serious, less credible, less entitled to feeling sexy or attractive. Nor does it make me more entitled. I am not that closely tied to word associations in my own mind, I just want to be appropriate to situations and true to myself in my dress.

I know this is just a discussion, and an interesting one, but I also find a lot to be sad and disappointed about in it.

It reminds me of this from Pogo:

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I know what you mean, Claudia.

To be fair, I need to point out that my read on the word "manly" is similarly cartoonish as my interpretation of "womanly." You know, Brawny guy and Jessica Rabbit. Or something like that.

The words "feminine" and "masculine" don't seem to have nearly that kind of connotation in my mind -- they also seem more generic, less personal somehow.

I think manly gets used more than womanly, at least where I work. But then I deal with archetypes.

Yeah, in my world, "manly" is more often likely to be used in a ironic, sarcastic or joking way. But mind you, I spend my time around a lot of artists, hipsters, and musicians. And when I go to Texas, "manly" is just a given, no one ever says it.

Very interesting topic! I don't think that I have many emotional triggers when it comes to descriptive words. I must just be very literal. To me it simply means "like a woman" so I would take it to mean that something makes a person look, feel, or act like a woman and not like a girl, boy, or man. I personally feel that it leaves lots of room for variety. We all know, as evidenced here, that women come in every physical, mental and emotional form imaginable. I think that "womanly" encompasses them all. But I still don't find it to be a positive or negative thing - more of a factual thing.

Yes, I second Claudia! It has made for a fascinating read, though... Patriarchy as a social, lingual, cultural construct is the oppressor here. (and the term 'manly' is also fraught for men I would wager). In a truly just social construct expressions of biological duality would be devoid of value judgement, stereotyping and shame.

Interestingly enough, body shape doesn't get much play in my mind when I hear 'womanly.' To me it's an... orientation. I think that's the word I'd use.

Ditto to Rachylou. It's the orientation that ties a woman's worth, or power, to an external stereotypical role or image that makes me uneasy--which is totally different than internally feeling sexy, or womanly, or feminine, or whatever. Dressing to FEEL "sexy", to my mind, is not the same as dressing to LOOK "sexy"--which is also fine, if that's your preference. What makes me uneasy, though, is when women choose to find their power by adopting a sterotypical type of "sexy", or "womanly", or "feminine", dressing that allows them to manipulate others into seeing, and reacting to, them in terms of the stereotype, instead of as an individual.

Regardless of how we feel about the connotations placed on words like "sexy" or "womanly", this discussion shows how powerful these stereotypes are in our minds as well as in the rest of society. To me, the real question is how do we choose to cope with them.

I always enjoy your posts, Gaylene.

Speaking as someone who always had to deal with men - often uneager men - as an absolute equal (if not as a superior), I choose to respect and draw power from the differences. I am a woman. I also have brown hair and eyes, a gray cat, and a green rocking chair. All of these things inform but do not define me unless I chose to let them. And if those things impress someone in a way I can't control, well, vive la difference so long as you stay out of my way.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of examples where I or someone I knew dressed in a way that looked sexy and at the same time wasn't dressing that way because it made them feel sexy or attractive and I'm coming up blank. Also I think so much has to do with the people you interact with. One group's 'cute' is another group's 'racy'.

Also I'm nodding to IK's comment again. People use physical power from posture to dress to height in so many subconscious ways in workplace interactions, and whatever road a woman chooses with regard to gender markers in dress probably has some positives and some negatives in terms of how she is perceived. Given that, for me all roads that are effective and not overly disruptive are good. Charm and charisma work for both genders after all.

Well this is why I love discussions here. Claudia, I agree with you, although I think talking about it is the first step to changing it. I know my reaction didn't sit well with me, and that was why I posted, hoping for insight and analysis into the source. And you all came through as usual.

Not exactly on this topic, but related to changing societal expectations: I know I am the last person anyone expects to see in my line of work. I like to think paradigms get shifted in our individual lives and not just in more global ways.

Side note: What do we consider the "womanly arts"?

I also love your posts, IK,--and those of all the women on this site because I think dressing has so many ramifications once you start peeling back the surface of " I dress to please myself".

I agree that we all employ whatever tools are available to us when we assume roles in the workplace, but I think sexual power is more likely to be misinterpreted or misused than other sources because it is derived from a very narrow sense of a woman's role in society. Charm and charisma work across gender lines, but sexual power is aimed deliberately at males--and usually works best on those males who are witless enough to not see the manipulation that lies under the surface. It is also a power source that is most likely to be resented by other females because it is so closely associated with stereotypes of feminine beauty and youth. As Rachylou so astutely points out, it's the orientation of outwardly accepting the stereotype in order to further one's personal goals that makes me feel so uneasy. I've done it, it works brilliantly, but I've never been particularly happy with myself when I've chosen that route.

ETA: @rabbit--I think it's a stretch to think that dressing in a "sexy" fashion is always an outward manifestion of feeling sexy and worthwhile. I've seen too many young women adopt a "sexy" appearance to mask inner turmoil and feelings of worthlessness. I also imagine that women who are in the business of selling sexual services adopt a "sexy" style of dress, without necessarily feeling the least bit sexy or attractive. Or women who adopt a "womanly" style because it is demanded by the society or faith that they espouse.

And nobody has breached the topic like of model Andreja Pejic.
He started as male model doing men's shows, began doing woman's runways and magazine work. And now came out as transgendered.
But has always been a physically beautiful person.

Gaylene, do you think there's always something beneath dressing to please oneself? Even when it's done at a cost?

Anna is someone who strikes me as undilutedly, unabashedly dressing to please herself. Perhaps this is possible (if it's true; is it, Anna?) when one has a uniform for work.

On another note: Anna, what bothers you about the phrase "trying too hard"? Or, what uses of it bother you?

FWIW I'm still dressing primarily in conformity to the law and the weather. I'm not yet at a place where my way of dressing pleases myself.

I think "trying to hard" irks me because it implies everything must be easy. Everything is not easy, especially life. Insert Princess Bride quote. Making an effort should not be diminished. Some things when you work at them become all the better.
Who is someone actively harming by dressing a certain way, even if it sexy or womanly. I am reminded of some thinking regarding rape victims and saying she was asking for it by dressing too whatever... And I haven't even breached slut-shaming.
Plus at least for me I do a lot of personal exploring in my dress. Hello, I went through a huge goth phase in the twenties, grey lipstick and all. In exploring, some women choose to dress sexually. Some get piercing and tattoos. There's a whole range of expression. We don't live in North Korea or Bhutan with state sanctioned dress.

ETA

Also how much of the thinking is second wave feminism versus third wave feminism. Unfortunately we have very few millennials on here to get their perception.

Anna, what age group do associate with first wave feminism, second wave, and third wave?

"It sortof makes me sad that sexuality is so devalued in the States. It should be a source of happy power, IMO."
Me too IK.
Claudia, I feel sad too & in lots of ways it is women who perpetuate the shaming of other women.
This is a really interesting thread & a great reminder of the power of words & of our assumptions. I'm a feminist & will continue on my quest for womanly androgyny in my clothing I will rely on my sisters to tell me if that means I'm frumpy or matronly

Not Anna, but according to wikipedia (so grain of salt) first wave was before and through the war years, second wave started in the early 1960's and coexists today with third wave which started in the early 1990's when I was in college. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism. There are several differences, but one is:

Third-wave feminism distinguished itself from the second wave around issues of sexuality, challenging female heterosexuality and celebrating sexuality as a means of female empowerment.

Gaylene--yes, I wasn't including sex workers wearing a work uniform/advertisement of services. I agree of course that not all women who dress in a sexual manner feel attractive or self-confident, although given free choice many might have chosen their outfits wishing to feel that way. In my experience with teen girls all kinds of clothing can mask all kinds of feelings going on underneath, and like Anna says, the search for identity involves experimenting hard sometimes, pushing at boundaries.

Interesting discussion, IK!

Thanks for your considered responses, everyone. I've really enjoyed reading them!

To me, the term 'womanly' is intimately associated with 'sexual maturity (physical characteristics and possibly emotionally)', whereas 'girl' is not. You have asked if there is anything between the two; to that I would say yes, life is rarely black and white and includes all shades of grey! Discovery is a journey. And annagybe has already raised transgender issues.

I am female, I am a woman, I am womanly, I am feminine, I am sex, I am sexy (in my way). I own all of these terms. I have no issue with being called womanly.