Jonesy, I would not personally describe any of the looks you linked to as androgynous because, even if the heads were chopped off, I could still recognize these as "feminine" outfits. If I saw them on mannequins, I would not question whether I was shopping in the correct department. Even the pants are cut pretty close to the body, have low rises that do not make one wonder if there are extra parts down there, and are paired with *decidedly* feminine items (heels, blush pink lace).

Rae said just what I was going to say. I like the contrast and juxtaposition of tough and girly elements, but I don't think the two opposites "zero out" to androgynous.

Patti Smith is another example of androgyny to me - it's that moment of "boy or girl?", maybe?

Love your example Jonesy.

I'm sticking with the obvious (tailoring), picture #1 in my opinion is well executed androgynous style and picture #2 is my comfort level with the look (closer to the feminine end of the continuum)

Julie, those are fabulous photos of androgynous style! I'm sure that our Social Scientist will agree

Just read this whole discussion- it was very entertaining with a bowl of oatmeal! Does anyone remember "Pat" from Saturday Night Live? Androgynous?

I agree with both your interpretations

Thanks for chiming in, Rae! I see what you're saying. It seems like, for you, even a single element that's considered feminine would automatically nullify the androgyny factor? So it's more about cross-dressing or intersex-dressing, in combination with the blurred gender the person is presenting? If that makes sense :).

Una, I agree about Patti Smith being a great example! I've always loved her. I guess my idea of androgynous style or androgynous elements is just broader (again, the whole continuum idea).

Julie, those are lovely examples. Janelle Monae's style is all about the retro suit.

Angie, yes, the social scientist in me is loving this thread! It's sort of like having a discussion in class, just drawn out over many hours :).

ETA: Thanks Clover and Dacian! Yes, I remember Pat! Certainly an androgynous person. I've even seen the Pat movie--not a lot of people can say that :)!

Ah, yes, Patti Smith. GREAT example!

Another social scientist here!

I disagree with Jonesy, Angie and Julie. I think my perception of androgyny is more aligned with Rae's and Tarzy's and those who have chimed in before along the same lines.

While androgyny literally means man+woman, I think in social sciences it has come to mean more than a simple togetherness and rather a transcendence of social constructs and norms that are associated with gender. So I agree with others who see it as a blurring of gender boundaries in style. In that sense, all the examples that were previously provided by Jonesy and Julie read as menswear to me rather than androgynous.

It is very hard to come up with concrete examples, but the best promixation (though not a perfect example and I am sure that you can find pictures where she looks utterly feminine) is Tilda Swinton's style.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/.....-awards.do
http://www.people.com/people/gallery/0,,20054639_20083978,00.html#20083978
http://www.refinery29.com/hair.....g-platinum

Attached picture is more food for thought.

Waving at Jonesy

Bella, the word androgynous clearly has many meanings - a fashion one, a social one, and a literal one. My interpretation relates to clothing and not the other two. Your photo, to me, clearly demonstrates the meaning that Jonesy, Julie and I have of the word in a fashion context. Blurring of gender boundaries is exactly it! Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I don't see how our perceptions are different.

I see a distinction between an outfit that has neither masculine nor feminine identifiers (what, to me, is blurred gender/androgynous), versus an ensemble that blurs gender lines by COMBINING masculine and feminine identifiers (girly dress + work boots, e.g.) or by putting solely opposite-gender signifiers on a person (a lady in a tux). I wouldn't call the latter androgynous--I would call it boy-meets-girl, menswear-y, etc. Androgyny, to me, even in reference to fashion, connotes genderless-ness, like some weird Yohji Yamamoto drapey thing or half of what Tilda Swinton wears.

Thanks so much for joining in, Bella! I knew you were an academic, but it's swell that you're in a social science like I am! I agree with you that androgyny in terms of *people* is generally understood as a blurring or ambiguity re. gender in the social sciences. But there are some nuances there too. For example, I'm influenced by the thinking and empirical research on psychological androgyny, based on Bem's Sex Role Inventory. In a nutshell, the scale evaluates how people feel about a list of characteristics, some of which are gendered male, some female. It was developed in the mid-'70s, and has been validated over the years with lots of different samples. You can use the questions to tap into people's gender stereotypes, as well as how they define themselves. People who score high on both sets of attributes are conceptualized as psychologically androgynous. So in that sense, androgyny is a both/and or combination-of-the-two concept.

Re. your examples, especially Tilda Swinton: Love! I adore her style. In Orlando, she actually played a woman and a man for different parts of the film--a total tour de force performance, IMO. Love the group shot too, and I agree that these are examples of androgynous style. But, I'm not sure that Rae would agree since the women look like women and the men look like men...Maybe Rae will chime back in!

Hi Angie! Yes, I absolutely tend to think of the person/androgyny thing as separate from the style/androgyny thing, though we may be in the minority here :). I think Bella is saying that the gender ambiguity/Is this person a he or a she at first glance (both person and style together) is key, so that my earlier example of a person who is clearly a woman wearing, say, a fedora, some oxfords, and a flowery dress--which I would describe as androgynous style, since it's a mix--would not be androgynous in her eyes because there is no gender ambiguity in terms of the person.

LOL--this type of conversation is easier in person!

ETA: Thanks for joining in, Dashrashi! Yes, I see what you are saying...in the same vein as Bella and others, I think.

On the schedule for the Annual International YLF Conference On Fashion:

Topic: The "Who" In What We Wear
Speakers: Jonesy, Bella, Rae

Seminars fill up quickly. Please register early.

(If only!)

LOL--that conference would involve the most fun and the most style of any conference I've ever attended, that's for sure :)!

Off topic but super-squeeeeeeeeeeee: I'm now a VETERAN of YLF!!!!!! I feel so proud :).

Yay Jonesy.

I am also a thwarted social scientist, BTW (cultural anthro major) and I adore this type of discussion... We need a YLF summit on a cruise or something!

Congratulations Jonesy!! & i love your gardening efforts, so pretty and cheerful!

this conversation has been very interesting for me. i'm really tending towards the 'continuum' idea after reading these and ponderin' a spell......& that it's all influenced by social, regional, time-specific, cultural norms as dianthus pointed out.

for example, when i was growing up those top two madewell linx (thank you, Jonesy! madewell is new to me!) would have been pretty unexpected and definitely playing on the 'gender borderline'. but at age 49, and living in a very 'edgy' geographical region with regard to gender, those looks strike me as very 'femme'. as i pointed out before, around here there's a # of people that you just can't tell 'boy or girl' by how they look. it's like my 'androgyny-detecto-meter' has been reset!

Angie, it's interesting that you see a lot of that 'uni-sex' look near your place - it sounds like it's more popular in urban, 'left coast' areas. 'uni-sex' is a good term for it! i *think* my ideas here have to do with fashion & social ideas, not so much the literal.

and again, speaking from experience with seeing different people experimenting with how they present their gender, re: androgynous people......you'd be surprised what hair, makeup, and body language have to do with our perceptions of gender. i'd say a good 50% of women, and about 30% of men (facial hair is hard to get around), could come across as pretty androgynous if they really put their minds to it (without hormones or surgery). i've been good friends with a couple of drag queens, they can teach a person a LOT about this

Jonesy, i'm curious to know if this thread has gone in the direction you thought it would? it's gone a lot of unexpected places from where i thought it might, and i love it!! steph

Una, a YLF cruise summit...What a dreamy thought! I almost majored in anthro in college--love it! One of my favorite classes was Gender in Cross-cultural Perspective. Once you examine gender across place and time, you really see the fluidity of it...which is a perfect segue into your comments, Steph :). Absolutely, social and cultural context play such a huge role. And it's interesting to think about how these boundaries shift over time too...I totally agree about your thoughts re. make-up, hair, gestures, etc. and how they influence our perceptions of gender. Judith Butler, a feminist philosopher, wrote an influential book called Gender Trouble, essentially arguing that gender is a performance. I tend to agree. A student of mine is transitioning from female to male. We were talking, and he shared how he is going through this process of deciding which male mannerisms to adopt. Very interesting.

Re. this thread and where it has gone: I think it's been deeper, somehow, that what I was expecting. It's been so fun for me.

Never really thought about it, but I was a Cultural Studies major. This topic would have fit right in in school! Hm... seminar cruise? I'd be so for it (except I'm terrified of the open ocean).

I don't think that a single feminine *piece* negates androgyny so much as a single piece that *reveals* or *suggests* one gender or the other does. Dashrashi's comment rang true to me with Tilda Swinton being a great example. Cross-dressing would NOT be androgynous to me, because the clothes there are used to claim a gender - albeit the opposite one. A low-cut, form-fitting mechanics suit wouldn't count to me because it reveals womanly curves and a lack of chest hair.

Here are some images that I would consider androgynously gender-blurring. If I didn't know who these people were, I wouldn't be able to tell you who was (or identified as) a man and who was (or identified as) a woman.

Thanks for chiming back in, Rae! What a stellar line-up you have here in your examples. Tilda Swinton, I'm guessing Samantha Ronson, Grace Jones, and Boy George! I can't help adding this last example, from a street style blog today:

Thanks everyone for joining in this conversation--it's been a blast!

Love that last photo! I had my hair like that in college and looked pretty similar.

there is a difference between Tomboy and Androgynous dressing. We'll give Rae the honour of defining that difference.

Androgynous is either a woman dressing as a man or a man dressing as a women. Neither specifically feminine nor masculine. Currently the trend is all about having the characteristics or nature of both male and female.

It's a fashion style, trend or statement? Or it's a life style that had inspired fashion designers? Look at those who had always live by it, such as Coco Chanel.

Bella said it. I also very much agree with Mrseccentric.

Bella added transcendence of norms as part of her description of androgyny. In other words, that there is a rebellious element by deviating from what is expected. In this case, what is expected is the clear divide between "male" and "female" (allowing no other option).

So in a sense, the norm in question dictates that a woman must not only dress as a woman, but also and maybe foremost dress as _not a man_.

Hence, the female dressing process is done partly against certain features, ones convention classify as "male", and not only just to encourage "female", "beauty" or "style" features.

Mrseccetric wrote about her experience with men suits worn by women: in one point in time and space, these outfits could be perceived as rebellious, as norm-pushers, but more recently, they are perceived as the very opposite, serving to _accentuate_ womanliness rather than suppress it.

Androgyny in fashion is something ironic, and has a perverse power, as it is mostly used to enhance womanliness. Therefore it is said to be "sexy", by using contrast to amplify gender distinction and scream: I am a woman! Just in the same way that "granny-chic" serves to amplify the youth in the younger wearer.

Wow, Krisnidoux, what a fascinating insight - the idea that dressing in an androgynous way actually amplifies "sexiness." Food for thought, for sure.

How do you apply these to your own closets?

I work in very male-dominated industries and butch or androgynous or very feminine dressing carries a certain peril, as I am already in a weird zone of girl-who-likes-boy-stuff-like-comics-and-video-games.

I'm very intrigued that this 3-month old thread was revived by Esleea :).

I am with the Ironic part----on the personal sliding scale of feminine poise, grace and elegance--if you are lucky enuff to be on the max side, dressing male is both ironic and sexy and more. If you are on the less side of the scale it does not come off with the same effect. Ask me how I know, even tho I am probably in the center LOL --it's more 'miss' than 'hit'.