We need to talk about Norah... - YouLookFab Forum

Category

Off Topic

Welcome! Read about what to wear and how to wear it on the YLF Blog. Join the YLF Forum to ask specific questions or just chat about fashion and personal style. Or check out the curated list of things we love in YLF Finds.

Outfits Ensembles Trends Advice

We need to talk about Norah...

approprio

(website)

Veteran

Y'all seemed to enjoy hearing from my alter ego Norah Turncote the other day, and a few of you were kind enough to invite her back. To tell you the truth I rather liked Norah myself. She gives me a voice to talk to you all about what I'm doing at the moment without taking myself too seriously. Norah is not me, but she is very much like me. Humour is part of my style, it informs what I'm trying to achieve in building a fashion business and in Norah, I have the scope to present some serious intent with a nod and a wink.

I have to admit I feel a little awkward in this regard for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, I love this forum, I very much want to share this journey with you and I value any critical feedback. What I don't want is to use it as a promotional platform or create any conflict of interest, either for myself or for Angie, Greg and Inge.

Secondly, I wonder what a presence like Norah could do to our brand credibility in the future. I like her because she's fun and serious at the same time. Letting her out into the wider world could be a great way to present the brand memorably in public while keeping something of ourselves back. Then again, she's risky. I can't be sure she'll behave herself around the fashion crowd.

What do you guys think?

Off Topic

16 replies

Latest reply was from Mochi

Suz

(website)

Veteran

That's a really good question. I think it comes up whenever a writer invents a persona. I am going to have to think about it a bit more. I suspect that here on the forum, it would not be a problem. You're known to us, your intentions are known, and your relationship with everyone here extends beyond (or further back) than the current venture. I am pretty sure I speak for most when I say that I love learning about your latest creations and where you are going with your work.

It's more the issue in the wider world.

Perhaps she needs an alter ego who can represent another point of view? Just to make things more complicated, ha! But, you know...Norah is cheeky and irreverent; maybe her friend X is serious and full of detailed information about the product?

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

These are good questions, Liz. Thank you for asking them. I'm nodding in agreement to Suz, because as always - she is wise and sensitive.

Liz, you are a talented writer, and should absolutely explore your writing skills and humour gene with Norah. FWIW, here are my feelings about it.

Norah was the Anti-Angie and Anti-YLF, which I laughed at wholeheartedly because I have a sense of humour, and I'm a sport. That said, I wouldn't find it funny over and over again because it's at our site's and my livelihood's expense. I'm not saying it wouldn't go down well with an audience. That's why "nasty blogs", and columns that criticize others and rip celebrities to shreds have extremely high traffic rankings. YLF chose to stay very principled, respectful and wholesome, and I'm glad we did despite far lower traffic levels. The tortoise won the race, and I go to bed with a clear conscience.

Liz, I KNOW you are not a nasty person, hence this question on the forum. I appreciate that more than you know. It does bare repeating that there are people with real feelings and businesses on the other end of a computer screen. You only really get that after you've had a strong online presence for a while. And while I might not be the next person who Norah compares herself with - that next person might be in the same boat as me.

As for the potential conflict of interest with Norah and YLF - people have left this forum because of things like that, and that's just life! We can all stay respectful of boundaries and wish each other well. And of course, I wish you well, Liz.

Hope that makes some sense!

rachylou

Veteran

I think the thing about Norah, is that Norah was ultimately poking fun of herself... and I identify with that. In the same way that I'm an ancient Hipster and want to laugh at the way I wake up every morning thinking about $5 donuts and which pairing of overalls, beanies, and clogs I'd wear to go get some...

approprio

(website)

Veteran

Angie, thanks so much for your considered response.

I very much appreciate your honesty in sharing your experience in creating a personal brand online, which serves as excellent advice. Norah is fun for a day, but her brand of humour is potentially risky, not just on YLF but in the wider world as well. I get that, hence the question.

I also want to make very clear that the joke was mostly at my own expense and fashion in general, and not in any way anti-YLF. I didn't intend to come over that way and I'm sincerely sorry if it did. If Norah ever shows up here again it won't be as the anti-Angie. I can't overstate that enough - it would do neither of us any good at all. And anyway, Norah's a fan.

I think the bigger picture is how I address my continued contribution to YLF, and how I can talk about what I'm doing, if at all. I'd prefer not to withdraw completely, but I can foresee a moment when it might become a necessity. So yes, it all makes perfect sense. I guess we'll just have to see how it goes.

Suz: that is indeed very wise and sensitive and you've given me lots to think about. I need to puzzle this over along with Angie's comments, and work out what's next for Norah. She might turn out to be more trouble than she's worth.

On preview: rachylou, that's exactly it. Norah is the joke, the joke is on her and not on anyone else. Like I said, a risky strategy.

skylurker

Veteran

I'm quite surprised that Angie found Norah anti-Angie and anti-YLF, I've just read the post and found her tone only self-deprecating, but of course I don't understand all the nuances of English and may have missed something.

I also don't find your posts promotional, I'm very interested in the inner workings of the industry and find your insights of it fascinating.

I'm afraid I can't offer critical feedback though, I'd love to help but I know absolutely nothing about starting a business. I'm not even a good cheerleader, that's not in my culture

Diana

Veteran

So, I enjoyed Norah and her humor, and I took it all in a very tongue in cheek manner, same as Rachy. I didn't interpret it as being anti-YLF at all. BUT (and this is a big but) I and Angie and many of the other people on this forum know you and your brand of humor. For someone who doesn't know you? It's a lot riskier. For any kind of humor, there's always going to be someone who doesn't get it and will maybe get offended. Not everyone has the same sense of humor. And that's a fact of life when it comes to comedy, but may not be the best approach when trying to build a brand, if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, I think in some way or another every fashion brand is about building a persona. There's always a story and an ideal of the person who wears this brand. I guess the trick is to do that without being disparaging, or as much as that is possible. (It's not possible to not offend anyone ever, even given your best intentions.) And if you think about it that way, then I actually think YLF may actually be the best place to test the waters. We are nice (at least I think so!) and I think less likely to get offended than many, especially since we know you.

As for sharing your journey with us, I sincerely hope you do so as I personally really enjoy your voice and your story. I don't see anything wrong with self-promotion on the YLF forum in this case as I know you contribute in so many ways here. (Yeah, if someone new comes, drops a link to their blog or shop, and doesn't respond to anyone else's posts or interact with anyone, I'm not going to click their link. But that's obviously not the case here.)

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Liz, thanks for the sensitivity and forethought. I very much appreciate that. No apologies necessary at all.

I applaud and echo every word that Diana wrote. She's another very wise and sensitive soul.

Liz, the way you have been sharing your fashion business at the moment with YLF has been nothing but complementary, entertaining and interesting. We have loved it. I see authentic interest and support from our community, and that includes me. You're not trying to sell anything here so you aren't in breach of our terms of service. By all means carry on sharing with us. It can be lonely out there and we are a good sounding board. Know that you are always welcome.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

100% agree with Diana. And also completely respect Angie's response. Liz, your presence on the forum, Norah or not, is a joy!

Gaylene

Veteran

Angie and Greg have created such a warm and welcoming environment in this corner of the 'Net that it's easy to forget that YLF is a business and their livelihood. I admire their generosity in sharing their space and knowledge with others who are dipping their toes into the same waters.

As for Norah--I love her voice and enjoy her cheeky perspective, but years in the classroom have made me wary about using irony and self depreciation as a way of gaining attention. Those who "get it", have fun running with it, but those who don't can be puzzled, dismayed, annoyed, or--worst case--even hurt. Tricky business made even trickier because blogging is international, and cultural and language differences make a huge difference in how irony is interpreted. Only you know what risks are worth taking to make your brand appealing.

Mochi

Veteran

Is there a way to do this while taking Angie and YLF completely out of the equation?

(PS: Love what I *think* is a Kevin reference...what a killer novel that was.)

approprio

(website)

Veteran

Diane, Gaylene, (and Suz, on reflection) I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

Humour in fashion branding is a tried and tested formula, and I've been exploring that. That said, it's more commonly present in visual languages, where the joke is open to interpretation and therefore less potentially risky.

Norah appeared tangentially from my research in the area and I posted her pretty much for the fun of it. You could say I was testing the waters, but at the time I just wanted to make you laugh. I was comfortable being Norah for a single post in the forum where I can share an in-joke or two, but I'm not sure she's a presence I want to perpetuate, if that makes sense. Being Norah implies a certain amount of explicit satire, and satire can be provocative. On the other hand, provocation is not always a bad thing in fashion and it makes sense to use my writing skills as part of our communication strategy. Is this the way to do it? I don't know yet.

Either way, I'll have to ask my partner whether he'd be willing to play her straight man. Or even her boy-wonder side kick. Who knows?

Angie, you have no idea how much I appreciate the standards you set in this forum for intelligent, civilised discourse, and so much of that is about your insistence on good behaviour. I am endlessly grateful for your guidance on this matter and I'm going to read your terms of service again so I know how not to breach them.

Mochi, hopefully Norah's not such a problem child as Kevin (not posting any spoilers here) but if she has a future she may have to be banned from YLF.

Janet, skylurker, thanks for your support. It means a lot. Really, a lot.

Liz

Veteran

I think you'd want to approach this as a branding question for your own online presence -- which I assume you're going to be building on your own site, apart from YLF.

What will the purpose of that site be? Is it intended for merely for name recognition or will be it be a place to shop? Will your potential customers be drawn in by humor ("we're the in-crowd who get the joke") or will they wonder why you are deprecating the clothes that you want them to spend money to buy?

And then there's that really tricky question about authenticity: How important is that to your future customers? Will they be drawn to a persona such as a Norah -- or will they just want to see you being who you actually are?

approprio

(website)

Veteran

Thanks Liz, that's another very good point.

A big problem with launching any creative venture (or any new venture at all, come to think of it) is aligning whatever vision you have with the needs of the group you're trying to serve. This can mean walking the tricky path of modifying your objectives without compromising integrity or authenticity. I've run into this before and I'm aware of the pitfalls.

As you've probably noticed by now, I have a tendency to overthink these things and an awful lot to say about fashion. You may also have guessed that I regularly have tons of ideas, some good, some not so good, which crash around until I can marshal them into some kind of order.

As for the brand, ideally I'd like to target the kind of people who are willing to think of clothing in terms of craftsmanship or wearable art and buy it in the same way as they might buy an artwork for their home or a piece of handmade furniture. At the same time, I'd like to reach another audience, people who might not have thought of making their own clothes and aren't really aware of how easy it is to get started, or how rewarding it can be to craft an authentic look from there.

My current thinking is that our initial presence should be first and foremost about creating brand recognition with a story that makes people think in a positive way about how the clothes themselves are produced and how we choose to wear them. Some version of Norah & Co might resonate here but could easily read as gimmicky with too much exposure.

All of this is of course separate from my participation here on YLF. However, this is a public forum, my posts are indexed and Google being what it is, there will inevitably be a connection. What this means for dear Norah is that wherever she ends up, she needs to be able to play both sides.

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

Be careful with gimmicky....first thing that springs to mind is Jeremy Scott, especially his work with Moschino.

I do think a bit of Romy & Michelle's high school reunion. Where the really loved their clothes & wanted to share their passion.

Cerinda

Veteran

Liz, nothing I've seen you post has ever suggested self-promotion: description, information? yes; that vile, relentless self-promotion that represents the underside of personal branding? never.

If Norah and her friend the boy-wonder (Kevin?) had a blog of their own, I would definitely check in regularly.

Because I'm interested in design generally, the way people THINK about designed objects, and the way people APPROPRIATE them, I love your posts on YLF and would appreciate being able to follow your work over the long haul.

Mochi

Veteran

Ha, and now I'm thinking about a friend of mine who makes artisan furniture and am hoping to learn/steal ideas from your fashion biz musings to help him out. Because the market is very very small; either that or he stinks at self-promotion, which is another thing....anyway, carry on! : )