Yes, unfrumped, I'm feeling a little too L.L.Bean/STP/tidy these days and not enough something else. I agree a lot of this is about styling, taking the time to pick the just-right shoe/bag/accessory.

Ah I see. The "not non-threatening" bit threw me.

Would still be interested to hear more about that aspect!

Those two tops are the perfect example of nice v. another style, in this case boho. But I betcha the first top could be given a different vibe. In the pic it's worn with just a serviceable tank and what one imagines are just serviceable jeans. With a semi tuck and some earrings...

The different interpretations on this thread are fascinating.

Can I just add that Angie's thoughts regarding the importance of EMOTION in personal style is, as usual, very insightful. The two pictures you've chosen, Greenjeans, really illustrate this concept. The first picture is almost eerily devoid of emotion while the second one has it in spades.

The girl in the second picture is using her clothes to tell HER "story". The girl in the first picture looks like a blank slate--pretty, but hard to know what inspires or drives her.

My take is I never wanted to look nice - as in the kind of person that will go along and agree. Nice people are wonderful, my beloved sister is super nice, but I am just not. I am loyal as a dog with my close friends, but am extremely wary of strangers and being approachable has never been my goal.
Regardless, I want to look good - to myself at least. Completely separate things to me.

This is a great thread and I can't articulate my thoughts easily. The 2 pictures of the girls in the white blouses helped. Maybe it is the difference between when someone says " You look nice" as opposed to "You look amazing!" ? I know some of my boots eg cobalt patent ankle boots get the latter response and probably don't look "nice" as they're a bit too out there for that?

Also, it goes into the thread about the power suit. Staysfit's idea about authority is relevant here. If I'm going into a tough meeting I'd rather wear the out-there blue cobalt patent ankle boots than some kitten heels. They're a bit more kick-ass somehow which is hard to be when you're a 5 foot two "adorable apple". In those meetings I need to feel strong, not cutesy or dainty or pretty. And I'm not physically strong, I have more fat than muscle I think although essentially physically healthy. I need to feel mentally and emotionally strong.

It seems to me like you want the outfit to go from ordinary to extraordinary, like Jenni mentions. I do agree with you that a finished outfit is more "powerful" than one that is not. So for example, an outfit with the proper shoes, accessories, bag, hair and makeup is going to feel more powerful.

In the two pictures you show, the first one has a top that is ill-fitting and the detailing in it is not as nice. Plus there is no background, no smile, no accessories, and you don't see the whole outfit.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but when people do WIWs that are outside, the individual (and outfit) always looks so much better. I think just having a pretty background makes a difference. But in that case, it is the quality of the photography that is helping to give "power" to the image: it's not really your outfit.

To feel powerful without the crutch of good photograph, I do agree that your outfits need to have all the right ingredients, and if you're going through a style shift, well, it's understandable that you're not going to have them all. I would agree with you that you need to have at least 1 completed outfit and go from there.

Thanks for posting pictures -- that helps. I agree with what Gaylene and Smittie are saying about the photos.
It's not that the tops are so different, it's the feel and pose of the women themselves. One woman was being directed to do a plain item shoot, the other was in some kind of lifestyle shoot.

I wonder: You used to choose vintage clothes, and the choice itself was individual and "strong" or "powerful," whether the clothes were or not. You were saying that you were going your own direction. Now, you've changed. You're in your 40s, and something has happened that necessitated a closet rebuild. Usually, life changes like that shake up our sense of identity. It may take some time to find your individual choices again. In other words, it may not be only about the clothes themselves, but also that you know who you are personally in this new season and why you're choosing to wear what you're wearing.

I land at this place you describe every single Spring and Fall. When I look at my wardrobe as a whole, I think it's cohesive and I love all the pieces and it all make sense. Then I start getting dressed out of that wardrobe and the illusion shatters.

I've only found one fix for this so far. I have to go through my wardrobe, create outfits and photograph them. This allows me to analyze my wardrobe in a way that immediately shows me imbalances, needs and proportion problems that I just can't find in the abstract. When I do this practice I generally end up pulling out half of my wardrobe and replacing it with other, more fitting items from the rest of my collection. Pictures allows me to identify needs and strengths like necklines, flattery, color and structure.

I really don't love the process of it all and I've been procrastinating this Spring's sorting terribly, but it really is one day of effort that benefits me for 6 months as I grab and go outfits that I know work.

..my 1st thought was that you wanted to be the one who looked "of she's the one i want to work on the project with me becuause she get it done", instead of the one that the 1st immpression is "of she's so nice". but looking at your pictures, i'm left wondering even more about what you do you mean by nice....i see what gaylene's see's re emotion...but relooking at the photo's covering the models heads, what i also see is one outfit that is slimmer and fitted, and one that is sort of shapeless and de-ephamis the body under it. but i can totaly see a women getting complements wearing the less fitted one about "how nice you look"...is that what you are trying not to acheive?

You mentioned bags and boots. Sounds like there's instinct and insight in that thought....so maybe explore that first?

Boots have long been a "ME!" item, in that I could identify with a particular pair and feel more myself in almost any outfit if wearing them. I'm very picky about construction, and none of my boots ever had a moment where they looked particularly current. I also don't want any further boots in "similar" styles to what I have, any more than I'd like a boyfriend who seems similar to my partner.

Only recently discovering this can be true for bags in non-work settings. For a long time, I had a job where the perfect work bag was easily worth paying more money than I'm comfortable saying here. But I couldn't much identify with women who bought entry/middling bags (usually made in China and overpriced for the value) as important parts of their wardrobe. Until I picked one up at a consignment shop (no signs of wear, 30USD from 400 original) and discovered how ME (aside from my sourcing values) it felt and how well it worked, and how it made outfits look complete and "there." (When I take the gritty bus route, it goes in a canvas bag.)

I still wouldn't pay 400 for such a bag new, and would rather have one great bag than five different aspirational ones. But now I somewhat understand women who do make that choice. And I'm exploring bags now, in a way I suspect might tie in with what you're getting at here.

Are there any specific bags and or boots you have your eye on?

What an interesting thread! The photos you posted helped me a lot. Im wondering if the "nice" you are trying to avoid is a blandness and lack of texture and contrast. The first photo looked bland to me - the top had a certain amount of texture, but the model's hair was smooth and non-descript. The second photo had lots of texture - from the top to the jeans, to the casually mussed hair and colorful/interesting bag. I wonder if you could do a lot with your current wardrobe just by paying attention to texture and contrast. On a day when the clothes are more neutral, make your hair have more texture and movement, and grab a colorful bag and interesting shoes and you will instantly get more personality and less "nice". I personally struggle with having way too much softness - both in looks and personality, I have all softness and ZERO edge. My way of fighting against too much "nice" is to add some unexpected elements of edge or whimsy - platinum hair, odd or less feminine jewelry (Apple Watch and robot necklace) and most recently a nose piercing (tiny gold stud). At 44, these things also help me fight against the "soccer mom" stereotype that goes with my age and stage of life (no offense to any soccer moms out there). I have also noticed that among women my age, there is often a theme of being overly polished and "done", which could be another thing you are wanting to push back against... So those are some of my thoughts. Thank you for opening such an interesting discussion!

What Sarah said. And that when I hear "nice" in this context it means trying to find the lowest common denominator that won't unsettle anyone. I'm not that nice in person, why should I try to communicate that in my clothing choices.

This is growing up for me. As a girl, being nice was the expectation. Don't attract attention, don't challenge, don't put myself out there, don't raise my hand in class. It's pretty freeing to be able to say out loud, "sometimes I'm not that nice" and continue on my way doing what I was put on earth to do.

Thanks for the insights, everyone. I've read all your comments and think they're terrific. Lots to chew on . . .

Minimalist and Rambling Ann, Do you think there may be a feminist subtext to this thread? Something about power? I see "nice" as an accepting stance from a fashion point of view. Accepting of current standards, status quo. And "not non-threatening" is perhaps defiant? I'll give this more thought.

Thank you, SarahTheWhite. Your thoughts about texture and pushing back against overly done connected with me. I think what I want most is to feel like my most confident self in my clothes.

Some great points here. Yes, I agree with Sarah about how feeling too "done" makes me feel very not-modern and uncool. I'm not 100% or even 50% RATE, but a little bit of RATE helps me feel like I'm getting away from "too nice."

I definitely feel the feminist subtext to this thread -- and I see it not only in some of our desires to dress in black and stompy boots, but also in Angie's and Carla's desires to amp up the "pretty" in their looks. We each have different ways of feeling and asserting our individual power as women -- style is a huge tool in that regard.

Nice as accepting of status quo, that makes sense. And not non-threatening, hmm.

Taking a certain pair of my non-stompy boots as an example, I think they're somewhere between. Or encompass both. Knee high, almond toe, oval-block heel. What you don't see, but I feel, is that they're leather-lined, and the heel is stacked not wrapped, and the soles are stitched not (just) glued. They're feminine, but not pretty. They're fairly sleek, conform to mainstream ideas about footwear, and yet. They would not have been acceptably conservative in my previous, very tidy, career.

A few days ago, I considered pairing them with a (very comfortable) sleeveless sheath dress, over which I would have worn a voluminous cropped jacket that's not conventionally flattering. The weather forecast and my return transportation options weren't clear, so instead I wore black shell ankle boots, and nondescript but well-fitting straight-leg black jeans, a drapey silk sleeveless top, and that same jacket.

Sustainable fashion feels feminist to me; choices to sink resources into "staying current" looks like resignation to life as an object of male gaze. Sure, men don't care whether your footwear is right-now, so they're not directly dictating it. But the "staying fresh" game is generally played by women who are high beneficiaries of patriarchy and thus have little interest in taking a harder look at how their fashion choices impact, directly and indirectly, less-privileged women who suffer in the long run. For many of us somewhere in the middle, the costs of regularly "updating" a wardobe involves the kind of money that, over decades, can make a difference in a woman's lifestyle and quality of healthcare in retirement.

I certainly don't live in hemp granny dresses and moccasins made out of inner tubes, and that's not what I'm suggesting. There are times when it's prudent to signal privilege and status via wardrobe choices. Choosing footwear that can be repeatedly refurbished over decades is a privilege, and at the same time feels appropriately non-status-quo to me. Perhaps even a bit defiant.

What a fascinating thread, full of great insights. Thanks for starting it.

(And Rachy, I'm still laughing at the comparison between Big Bird and Queen E.)

As someone who also had to build a wardrobe from the ground up (in my case in my early 50s) and had to do it slowly, I know the frustration of not always having the right pieces for the look you are seeking. In my experience, the right haircut (or colour) will go a long way towards steering you out of the "nice" rut. It's probably the fastest and cheapest change you can make. Another trick is irregular outfit juxtaposition. Unless you have a corporate position where this is impossible, it will keep you from feeling too staid, too sloppy, or too stiff.

What a sensitive and helpful group of commenters you all are.

Suz, thanks for the commiseration. It's great to know others have gone through this process and come out the other end looking as good as you do. How long after you started your rebuild did it take you to start feeling good about your wardrobe? Was there a turning point you can identify that made the difference for you?

Thanks for going there, minimalist. I hear you & think you hit at something core to this thread. Seeking a sense of personal agency, I think, and indulging in love of fashion (color, fabric, design, imagination) with an awareness of some of the ways it can undermine.

Just want to say, Greenjeans, this is a perfect summation of one my main style needs:

'Seeking a sense of personal agency, I think, and indulging in love of fashion (color, fabric, design, imagination) with an awareness of some of the ways it can undermine.'

I need to put that on the wall of my closet when I get dressed in the morning!

The big turning point was cutting my hair a few months after joining the forum. Angie suggested the change and she was right. I'd tended to wear short hair most of my life but had grown it out a bit at the time I first joined YLF and I couldn't make the longer hair work for me -- it tended to skew conservative and overly "pretty" on me as well as unkempt, due to texture/ humidity issues. The minute I cut it, I felt more like myself and less staid or "nice" even in the same clothing. The hair provided juxtaposition to the classic items I tend to pick as a rule.

Another turning point happened when I got a better paying job and could spend more, faster! That's probably not what you wanted to hear. But it did help a lot. Going from a closet of nothing to having choices made a big difference. I am back to a lower spending threshold again but it was a huge help to spend more freely for a couple of years. If you can, you might consider putting more into clothing for a few years as you build the wardrobe, and then scale back after that.

Still another big change -- letting my silver hair come in. It is a paradox -- it is more dramatic in itself and also demands more drama from my clothing to work.

This is a very interesting thread indeed. I think I understand a little better now what you meant by nice. I will left 2 suggestions. First one is something I suggested to a friend of mine who was also in need of a new style/evolve her current style. Look into your clothes and outfits from past few years, pick those outfits you liked the most and some others you used to find "just nice". Try to identify what exactly it is that makes you like ones more than others and start searching for clothes in different styles, but with those shapes, patterns and details you used to like, and see how you feel about them now. See how those things work for you (or not work) and go searching new things from there. This may sound a silly suggestion, but it will make clearer what is it that you are actually wishing for, so this may be a good start to reinventing your style.

Second one is about looking more authoritative or non non-threatining. More straighter lines or angles may help with this. Its not about clothes shape, but how structured/maleable they are, adding some geometric accessories/accessories with points, defining eybrows and lips or contouring to create more angular facial features, hairstyling so that your hair won`t cover your face... - there is a thing called Visagismo in Portuguese that is exactly how to express ideas, feelings and personal traits through hairstyle, makeup, accessories and etc. Since google says visagism is a different thing, I don`t have idea what is the english word for this, but this is something that could help.

I agree that this thread is very insightful and filled with perceptive, sensitive thoughts. Comments are a great read, full of helpful advice.

Greenjeans, I'll cut right to the chase. I think you may be wanting to add accessories, if only one, to make your outfit more personal. Maybe this is where you are at in your style journey.

I'm thinking: if you have chains, try combining them in a new way. Or belts.

If you are shopping for a new wardrobe, maybe consider at this point visiting the same clothing stores, except this time looking only for their accessory section. Or you could look at pictures of actresses you are drawn to and who looks like you and like what you describe (Cate Blanchet, Kate Hepburn ...) and study their accessories.

Thanks your musings + practical advice. I am loving the mix.

Here's where I've landed . . . Next up for me, I think is finding a couple of new bottoms (pants/jeans) and shoes or boots that all work together.

Also, thanks for the bag-encouragment. It's only recently that I've become interested in bags as part of my look as opposed to just something to carry stuff around in. Shopping for a new one feels like a big leap, but one I'm excited about. (I love the one below by Sundance but think the handles aren't quite right.)

Great ideas, krishnidoux and Marina.

Thanks for the follow-up, Suz. I am nodding along with your story and loving where you've ended up.

Ha! Thanks, rachylou.

Looks like this conversation is winding down, but I'm jumping in anyway to thank you for this thread. Looking good without looking "nice" is one of my main style goals, for many of the reasons listed above. I am not an angry person at all, yet I'm on the lookout for what I call "angry accessories". Angry isn't quite the right word, but it's the closest I've come. I want my clothes to clearly show that I take up space, that I do not exist solely to meet the expectations of others, that I am not to be trifled with. I love bright colors including fuschia with lots of white, which I try to juxtapose with spiky jewelry and fierce shoes.

I think Angie's beautiful short haircut goes a long way toward the assertiveness I want to have in my look. No matter how girly, ruffley or feminine her clothes are, her hair still says she is her own person. She is clearly a force to be reckoned with, which is a message I absolutely want to convey in my own look. With my long hair usually up in a soft bun, I need my accessories to show that edge of authority and independence.

I love the "force to be reckoned with" concept being applied to personal style. Fascinating how many ways there are to achieve this too. Great discussion!

Aloha Emily, I love your post. As a grey haired woman, this is particularly important to me. I do not want to be taken for granted or shunted to the side. I want to be taken seriously and listened to. I think MsMary said this, "Ignore me at your peril."

wow, minimalist, you and I think along the same lines:

"Sustainable fashion feels feminist to me; choices to sink resources into "staying current" looks like resignation to life as an object of male gaze. Sure, men don't care whether your footwear is right-now, so they're not directly dictating it. But the "staying fresh" game is generally played by women who are high beneficiaries of patriarchy and thus have little interest in taking a harder look at how their fashion choices impact, directly and indirectly, less-privileged women who suffer in the long run. For many of us somewhere in the middle, the costs of regularly "updating" a wardobe involves the kind of money that, over decades, can make a difference in a woman's lifestyle and quality of healthcare in retirement.

I certainly don't live in hemp granny dresses and moccasins made out of inner tubes, and that's not what I'm suggesting. There are times when it's prudent to signal privilege and status via wardrobe choices. Choosing footwear that can be repeatedly refurbished over decades is a privilege, and at the same time feels appropriately non-status-quo to me. Perhaps even a bit defiant."

I'm always wondering about the evolving relationship between feminism and consumerism, as over the course of my three decades, I've seen a real shift towards "femme" feminism, or "luxe" feminism, where splurging on cosmetics and shoes and accessories, etc. does not "bar" one from the feminist ranks. I think there's been a definite move away from, even a disavowal of, the hemp granny dress version of feminism (second wave, if you will). Which is fine, insofar as it's important to reassert that anyone can be a feminist, regardless of how they look, but I do wonder at what point self-care becomes "treat yo'self!" becomes thinly-guised consumerism -- and benefits the marketplace more than it benefits women.

Even the current minimalism trend of the past 5 years is a distinct form of status-signalling. It seems there's now a "right" way to have less, which involves having the time to Kondo your house, having the money to subscribe to Stitchfix, Rocksbox, etc.

Greenjeans, don't know if any of that advances the conversation about "nice" vs "good" -- sorry if I've derailed -- but I do think signalling, and deciding how closely to align oneself with cultural expectations, plays a large role in your question.

There is strength and there is power. Strength I see as a personal attribute whereas power has to do with relationships. As young women most of us enjoy a degree of sexual power. This isn't something we achieve, it is just biologically there, and we can choose to deploy it or not. Of course, this fades as we age. But all isn't lost. There are all kinds of power from sexual to political to having personal agency.

I love that I can post a picture of a bag on this forum and then shift to a conversation about power and feminism. No, this isn't a derailment at all, La Pedestrienne. I'm seeking to recapture my love of clothes, but at my age (forty-something) I'm beyond wanting to look nice because nice doesn't feel powerful or even attractive to me. In fact, it feels weak. I don't want to feel costumed either, like I'm angling for attention. I do want to feel natural, comfortable, centered . . . powerfully myself in my clothes. Thanks, everyone, for your support. I am still figuring all this out.