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Last post: size dysmorphia?

catgirl

Veteran

The whole North Face parka sizing discussion(s) in the Anniversary Sale section has thrown me for a real loop! I bought mine in a size M. I am 5'2" (corrected - I've thought I was 5'1" my whole life but recently learned otherwise!) and 120 pounds and an IT with no defined waist. These are measurable, defined facts. Although I've gone up a size now that I'm 50, I don't know that I could be much smaller than I am. Like most of you, I wear a range of sizes depending on brand.

I know there are plenty of women who are XS or smaller, and I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. But I am trying to get my mind around the idea of whether I'm buying my clothes too big, or perceiving myself as smaller than I am. I realize how weird sizing can be, so this coat is a good example of the same item on different people. I am probably the shortest person who's posted it so far.

Is there a quantifiable difference between a taller size X and a shorter one? I think of how a boot's calf width can vary as size goes up, or bras where a 32DD is equivalent in cup size to a 34D. I have no one IRL to tell me that I'm not at PPL or that my sleeves are too long, so I rely on my own judgment and this forum.

When I collect my winter coats back from my parents' place, I will post better pictures of the coat to get your thoughts. I really think it fits and so did my SA. So confused!

Picture here (should take one properly layered though):

http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....angie-twin

Dressing

31 replies

Latest reply was from Suz

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Una, I don't understand this question - (or perhaps I need more tea, and missed forum discussions while I was working the NAS?).

"Is there a quantifiable difference between a taller size X and a shorter one?"

And do you mean perceiving yourself as larger than you are?

FWIW, and after seeing you on this forum for years, I think you generally purchase the right size, Una - but when you don't, we assist you by suggesting a smaller size. I don't think I have ever suggested that you size up!

You DO like your clothes roomy, and don't do body con apart from leggings and skinnies. You like your shoulders and bust to have room, which means that a larger size is often more comfortable. You also like your tailored clothes a little roomier than most (I do too). Our body con is the regular person's tailored.

Sizes mean very little today. They are a starting point and that's all. You have XS to L covered in your wardrobe probably. My 6ft tall client who wears a size 14/16 has S to XXL covered in her wardrobe. Anything from 10 to 16 and she is the same size (it's not a weight fluctuation thing).

On Saturday, I bought a designer jumper in a size Small - it fit perfectly - and I wear a 00 at J.Crew and Ann Taylor, and am often sized out of XS unless the fits are very narrow. At 5ft 6, I am too tall to wear petites. You've just got to go with what fits and hope for the best.

As for our puffer, it REALLY depends on what you wear underneath. The XS is roomy on me, so I can layer what I like underneath. I also could not size down. I see that Smittie has opted for a snug fit on her puffer whereas Staysfit chose a roomier fit to accomodate layers.

skylurker

Veteran

The discussions were an eye opener for me, too. They were my first K/R discussions. I automatically focused on fit, because that's what I do when I try on items myself.

But I found fit was very subjective, too. Tailored suits are easy enough to assess, but the other stuff...you can manipulate the fit according to style preferences. And of course seeing only the front of the item, sometimes in light that obscures or creates weird wrinckles...well, you have to be Angie to do it.

We don't have tall/regular/petite distinctions here, that would definitely throw me in the loop too ! Sounds so complicated.

Anyway, back to that puffer, I like how it fits you, but yeah, it depends what you wear underneath and how you like your puffers to fit...
(I remember when I shopped for my puffer, I went to the shop to try it again and again, 4 times, before I could decide on the size I wanted).

Susie

Veteran

Im no expert for sure but in a jacket like that, isn't the shoulder and arm sizing particularly important? I would think an IT could easily be more comfortable in a larger size than a taller woman with narrow shoulders. For the fit on the rest of the coat, as Angieentioned you prefer a looser fit.

catseye

Veteran

What Susie said. It is all in the shoulders and arms.

catgirl

Veteran

Thanks, Angie! No, I think I generally perceive myself correctly, but I don't always perceive how things fit me correctly. I recently realized that I tend to have Fit Goggles and buy things that I think fit me even when they aren't necessarily a need;. So these issues are all conflating in my head. Without the forum, I would probably be a hot mess.

Here's a better example: during one Shoptoberfest, Aida, Rae and I all tried the same pair of pants. They technically fit us all in the same size, but I kept them because they were the best look on me. I guess there are just SO MANY variations in fit factor. Seeing Staysfit and Smittie both in S and XS made me second-guess my own decision on the coat size, which is what prompted this thread. How "should" it fit? Or is that dependent on the things I factored in, like layering under vs. layering over?

Jenn

(website)

Veteran

Have you ever browsed http://www.mybodygallery.com? I'm 5'9" and a size 18 on bottom. When I put that into the search there, I get some images that are very similar to my body type, and a lot that aren't even close. Add in my weight, and top size and I STILL don't get a homogenous set of results. If I drop the height by five or six inches, I still see people who have body types similar to mine and those who look way different. It's staggering how different human bodies really are, even at the same clothing size or height and weight.

Nebraskim

Veteran

I get your general drift Una and agree with Jenn on how bodies are just not uniform and can be staggeringly different at the same height/weight. I'm 5-7.5, weigh about 160 and am a solid 14 on the bottom but all over the board on top due to small bust but large upper arms. So I have to buy to fit my arms, meaning the bodices are usually huge and flappy. I have a good friend who is 5-6, 160 and wears an 8. I think this is why successful shoppers know that trying on every single item is critical. Sizes are sort of like "suggestions."

texstyle

(website)

Veteran

FWIW I tend to buy clothing slightly on the larger size - sometimes to a fault, but usually to my own comfort and preferred look. I don't like fitted things on top but don't mind jeans to feel comfortably fitted, as long as they are not tight. I buy coats to accommodate layering under them and I like slouchy tees and knits with drape, etc. A fleece coat to me would often be worn with a sweater or long sleeves at least under it so it needs to have enough room for full arm movement to be comfortable to me. Also, I've seen the same item in two sizes fit almost the same sometimes due to manufacturing discrepancies.

Diana

Veteran

I don't think this is size dysmorphia so much as fit priorities and knowing what part of your body you need to fit your clothes around. In many cases this is going to be the largest part because you just can't get the clothes on otherwise. So, for example, any dresses I buy have to fit my butt. Sometimes this results in the shoulders and back being obviously unacceptably big, in which case the obvious solution is to try a different style altogether. But it's much more unclear in many cases. Like, in my case again, blouses. I often have to go up a size so the hip doesn't pull, which again makes the shoulders droop. In a drapey style this can look ok but sometimes makes the sleeves too long. I've mostly decided to be ok with this slight fit imperfection but some people perceive the overall effect as being too big.

And yeah. The petite issue. I rarely can wear petites even though I'm under 5'4" bc my arms and legs are too long. But my upper body is as petite (lengthwise) as they get. So I buy regular length in the correct size and the armholes are too deep and the waist too low. Again it may look slightly too big but it's the right size. And to me the fit is acceptable and it feels good. But to your point I don't know how much of that acceptance is just that I am used to clothes fitting like that on my body. Maybe I'm settling. I don't know.

Did this make any sense? ;). I feel like I'm rambling.

DonnaF

Veteran

You must have been reading my mind! Seeing you pic again in the Zella top makes me wonder if I ordered the right size -- even though I KNOW you are probably a size larger on top since you have broad shoulders and mine border on narrow. (I returned the first one that arrived anyway because the neckline was wonky.) As I see YLFers pics and their feedback on sizing, I am starting to question myself because I always think "go larger" when everyone else says "fine", especially on pants/jeans. I have a feeling that what Angie said about your fit priorities also refers to me except I don't do bodycon anywhere. I have, however, picked up a few pounds in the past few months so my clothes are getting tighter than I prefer.

Anonymous

I'm with Angie in not being sure I know what the question is. But yes, when I look at you in the orange NF, it looks not big, but not fitted either. Maybe a tad on the bulky side? See, I wear a M in TNF too - and as my daughter, who works for TNF, has confirmed what I always found: they are quite narrowly cut in the hip area and women who would otherwise wear a small (like me) need an M to get it zipped up at the hips.

But anyways, I too have Fit Goggles and am so blessedly relieved and happy to find something , ANYTHING that fits me and doesn't make me look like a square middle aged blob, that I buy it regardless of need or practicality. Ref: my entire closet. I never know what I look like relative to other people either. I often think I'm much thinner than I really am, and that's when it hits me hardest. Forgetting that I'm no longer what I was a few years ago. THIS IS WHY I HATE SHOPPING. It's too much work.

rachylou

Veteran

There is a style factor involved. I choose size depending on the look I'm doing. I mean, when I lived in the ghetto, I got infected with ghetto fabness there for a bit. Ghetto fab is good with, even prefers, the squeezed sausage look, lol. There was this one girl I knew - and she wasn't lean to begin with - trying to eat more to get the proper look (!!) Right now I'm three - four pounds below the weight I personally like to be and yet I want a bigger size for drape.

Sal

Veteran

I have every size in my wardrobe from small to extra large. I have NZ size 10-14 pieces. I sometimes buy jeans that need hemming, sometimes they are too short.

There is such a combination of factors at play- height, shoulder width, hip width, preferences, leg length....

DH has started lounging around in boxers and ugg boots with a zip up sweatshirt. I said that maybe comfort was getting too much priority.... but the same can apply to all of us. That is an extreme case of comfort taking over and maybe TMI.

I don't know if I have answered the question or not??

Andrea H

We are stat twins, more or less. I am 5'2, 119, 53 years old. Every North Face jacket I have is a size small and they're a fairly fitted small, so I could totally see myself wearing a medium if I wanted a lot of room to layer. I wear a size 0 or 2 ( or extra small) in most things, 4 at Lululemon, so I don't know what is is about the fit of North Face on me that I need to size up. But I do.

Traci

Veteran

I do think there's a difference in a 5'2" size 8 and a 5'10" size 8 and surprisingly, the shorter one doesn't necessarily look heavier. I can't figure out how that works, but I've noticed it several times.

I totally get you on the fit goggles. I've often thought I'm lucky to be sized out of some brands and sized out of the good thrift store finds because I don't have very good self control if something looks decent on me I think I need it. Who knows when the next good fitting item is going to happen by? It's a different kind of scarcity, I guess.

Jules

Veteran

My weight, size and overall fitness level are probably actually fairly close to what they were when I was 14 (I was not a slim kid). But my shape is really different due to aging and changing hormones. And while I'm not thrilled with many aspects of my middle-aged body, I find it easier to find pants that fit - my proportions are closer to "standard", I guess.

crazyone

Veteran

the fit on your North Face is definitely roomier than on Smittie, Staysfit, or Colette, but it looked appropriate when I saw it originally--it's a puffer, I expect you'd be wearing winter layers underneath and I don't expect jackets to be form-fitting anyway?

You and I actually have very similar stats in terms of height and weight (I'm an inch taller), but very different body types. Interestingly I almost always wear XS, at least on top. But as Angie has pointed out, I tend to prefer body-con fits. Some of it though is sizing creep, as I've gained about 10 pounds in the last several years and haven't changed sizes that much.

Peri

Veteran

Is this also climate dependent? I would think you would need warm sweaters in puffer weather and so might need a bigger size to do that comfortably. I hate tight coats. I hate to feel constricted in the shoulders.

Someone else who is technically the same size might have no need for thick sweaters under the coat because maybe in her climate the puffer itself would be plenty warm enough over a light sweater or blouse, and insufferable over a thick sweater. Or might have narrow shoulders and not feel that constriction.

I don't think we can compare sizes like apples to apples. Too many variables.

UmmLila (Lisa)

Veteran

Just on the North Face jacket in your linked photo -- I think it looks too big in the photo. However you should look at it again layered as you would wear it.

With regard to size dysmorphism, even with photos I find it is hard to get a sense of how I look. I tend to think I look large and so when I see myself looking small in photos, I assume there is something wrong with the mirror. That I know is past history more than anything. And all the weird sizing games with brands don't make choices any easier. I am kind of with LisaP in that if I find something that really fits I want to rush out and buy it because the really-fits items are like unicorns. Even if unicorns don't run in harness with wardrobe workhorses.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Too. Many. Variables.

As Angie said, you like your fits on the loose side, especially up top. That makes sense. Years of feeling constricted will do that to a person. Ever noticed how a lot of the taller women on the forum balk at styles like ankle pants or bracelet sleeves? Too many reminders of horrors past. A lot of us who are or were once pretty pears or bottom-curvy hourglasses shudder at the thought of trying on jeans. I get really worried about high vamp footwear if not tied in, colourwise, to my pants or tights. And so on.

Hahaha, Lisa, just howling at your joke there. If only unicorns did run in harness with workhorses!!

Anyway, Una -- you want a looser fit in that coat, and it WILL fit you looser because you need a bigger fit in the shoulders yet you have narrow hips. If a pretty pear tried it on, she'd need a bigger fit for the hips (which, as LisaP said, are cut crazy narrow in North Face -- I totally agree with that!). So for her, it would look loose (maybe) up top.

North Face is basically cut for slim rectangles, just like J. Crew. So if you are slim rectangle (Staysfit, and ..on the whole, Smittie) you will take a smaller size. Angie's in between hourglass and rectangle, like me -- I'm probably between an XS and a S in that NF coat. I haven't tried it on, but Truefit told me to take S yet Smittie, who has slightly larger measurements than me in waist and hip, took the XS.

Perhaps she took the XS because she plans to use it as a sweater, essentially -- and layer a coat over it. She likes a more fitted tailored fit.

Weight, height etc. don't seem to have a lot to do with all of this. It's about measurements and proportions.

I've met you in person. You look delicate and TINY to me. Seriously!! Yes, I know you have a bust and wide shoulders. But you also have dainty delicate wrists and ankles and beautiful fine bones.

Not that "tiny"is the standard of beauty, by the way -- that is not what I think at al!!!! No way, Jose. I just don't think you should let a number on a piece of clothing govern anything. If you like looser fits, you'll take a bigger size. If you want to compare, order a size down and see how that feels and looks. Show us on the forum! Show all sides and back.

My guess is, you'd get differing opinions even then!

catgirl

Veteran

Suz, as usual you've hit on the heart of the matter. In the relative scheme of things where I live (lots of strapping dudes) and in my husband's presence, I am often told I am tiny, and it can throw me off in judging what fits me. I don't think of myself as tiny AT ALL! But not do I think of myself as big and tall. Abd in my career, it's not a bad thing to look older and more imposing. In India, I'd be absolutely average in size and height.

Having seen you in person as well, I'd say you're of similar stature (more pixie-like though) yet are more even-proportioned. I have the build of a cartoon superhero - giant shoulders, tiny hips. You have shoulder presence without being an IT and you have a waist! We can cross over with some items but not others, and that's without even accounting for the mysterious chemistry factor an item like your new vest can create.

Yes, a side by side try-on would help!

Will respond to other comments when I have time - all are appreciated and it looks like the topic resonates with a few of us (Donna, Ummlila). It's not that I'm worried about my size, more about my perception of how things fit me based on that self-image.

catgirl

Veteran

Ummlila, your unicorn quote wins the day!

Aziraphale

Veteran

Una, I'm in the same boat as you and I've wondered about this for years and I think I've finally figured it out.

Short women often don't have much of a waist. This is because there is not a lot of space between the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hip. As a result, even if there is very little body fat, the torso doesn't dip inwards at the waist like it does on average-height or taller women. I'll use myself as an example: my waist is between 27" and 28", which is usually a medium on size charts. My hips are only 34", which is an XS on a normal-height woman, but this doesn't matter; you have to get clothes to fit your widest point.

Add to this the fact that I've got very square shoulders, and I'm often more comfortable in a medium than in a small or XS, even though I'm very short and, according to the doctor, lean. (I'm scraping the bottom of the weight limit in the height-for-weight chart). You and I have a similar shape, so I'm not surprised that the medium puffer coat fits you better than the small. It doesn't mean you aren't small -- you are -- but it's the distribution that matters.

By the way, that red puffer looks fantastic on you, and it looks to me like it fits really well, except the sleeves need shortening.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

That's right -- it's the distribution, and distances between things, and so on. So many different factors to consider.

Una, here is a secret. My super hero powers are all in my thunder thighs, which on the days we met were neatly disguised by my A line drop waist dress and my loose fitting culottes!! Seriously, that's where my disproportion (if such there be) is all hiding.

Put the two of us together and we grey haired grannies would conquer the world!!

Anonymous

Well, I have found this sizing discussion fascinating too, and what I've learned is to keep an open mind to sizes that are quite a big BIGGER than what I would normally choose. I do perceive myself as a small person (though not tiny) and pick the size XS first.

For an example of sizing up, I went in to check out a Mackage leather jacket today. I tried on the S and the M. The M was ever so slightly more roomy, but only by a little bit, and not enough for it to be unflattering. The SA said the M looked almost the same as the S. But to me, the feel of the M was roomier. So I think you can FEEL size differences more than you can see them. So this is why I think asking YLF for sizing info is probably not the best idea, unless you're really unsure of yourself.

Also, sizes are all about the same! The TNF puffer was only ever so slightly bigger in the S than the XS. The M might have been fine on me too, but when I don't usually bother with the M because thr arms are usually quite a bit too long. I guess what I'm saying is: If you are always reaching for the M without looking at the S and XS, then I do think this might be a body perception issue. Maybe

I am 5'5" 125 for reference.

Lenni A

As a fellow IT, I think it may be a body shape issue. My definitely largest part is my shoulders and also my upper back and chest measurement. Often sales associates will look at my general size, slim legs and relatively narrow hips and recommend small sizes that I KNOW won't work for the top half of my body, and they seem actually surprised when I'm correct. I also hate the feeling of snug arms and particularly the snug across-the-back feeling that comes from moving the arms forward when something doesn't fit right through the upper torso. I find I typically wear something in the size 4-8 range in bottoms but I just ordered a couple of size Medium jackets and I'll be very interested to see if I'm able to fit in them or if I need to size up to a Large, as I often do. I'm 5'7" so I don't think it's an issue confined to more petite ITs.

Gaylene

Veteran

Bespoke Savile Row tailors take over 30 measurements to create a tailored suit for a man. Since woman's bodies are notoriously more difficult to fit because of our curves, it's laughable we use only three measurements when deciding what size we should buy.

Elisabeth is right in saying it's all about distribution on a 3D body so it makes sense fitting into a ready-to-wear garment will always require a compromise. Where we will make the trade offs when we pick a size depends on our personalities, environment, personal needs and preferences, body image, moods, and probably a host of other subconscious influences. My perfect fit may be worlds away from your perfect fit.

Anonymous

Traci, I'm a 5'2" size 8, trying desperately to lose the 20 lbs. that went on me fast and won't budge. After talking to my doctor, I have been advised to try to see if I can do without my midday dose of Gabapentin, as I'm suspecting it might be the med that has caused the weight gain. Anyway, I digress. I'm just trying to get to the point that I'm normally a size 6. When I find myself between sizes or whatever and I need to size up or down, I make my decision based on how I want the garment to fit. Most of the time those decisions are based on comfort due to chronic pain, but I do try to make sure my clothes are neither too baggy or too tight.

Staysfit

Veteran

I followed this with great interest as I was packing last night, and now that I am stuck in the airport between flights, I can finally take time to comment. So, are we losing track here of proportions and body shape? Of course two people the same height and weight could have very different measurements and that makes perfect sense to me. Some have long legs, others long torsos, some have muscular arms, some narrow shoulders, etc. So, my 5'9" 128 lb frame is going to wear clothes very differently than Una, Smittie or anyone else. I love that about all of us. We can all purchase the same thing and each look so different wearing it, yet we each look fabulous in our unique individual ways. The TNF coat was designed by someone but it is up to us to figure out how we want to wear it and how we want it to look. Either we like its look on our particular frame at a given size or we don't. The same would be true of any item. If it doesn't work for us, then we can move on to the next.

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