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kitchen remodel --anywords of wisdom

kkards

Veteran

Fabbers --a little backstory. about 3 years ago, i woke up one Sunday morning to discover it was raining in my kitchen. i called my upstairs neighbors to see if they had a leak, they had none they could see. so, the plumber came and cut a hole in my drop ceiling, couldn't find anything, cut a bigger hole, still nothing. long story short, the leak was behind my upstairs neighbors dishwasher, so they never saw it. and since i have a dropped ceiling, we don't know how long they leak had been going on. anyway, in addition to the hole in the ceiling, I ended up losing the cabinet that was in that corner, as some mold was discovered. the balance of the kitchen was/is still intact and useable.
I talked with a kitchen designer and had a plan drawn up. Her design was 20% more than i wanted to spend, and didn't even give me everything i wanted, and had a one thing I told her I didn't want. (I should add here, I'm in a building that's 100 years old, that was converted to condo's in the 1980's so i'm expecting many issues to come up when the walls are opened up, so I'm trying to save 10-20% of my budget for that).
And shortly after the kitchen disaster, my dad became sick, and i spend time commuting between here and my parents. And, I'll be honest, i found it hard to focus on my kitchen.
now my dishwasher has stopped working…..

So, it time to get the kitchen done. But, I seem to be stuck. If you buy a pair of jeans and shoes and they don't work together, you wear the shoes with something else. if you make a mistake with your remodel, or decide the cabinets are no longer the style you want, you're kind of stuck. I have tons of ideas, hundreds of pictures saved into an idea book on houzz, and a list of wants and don't wants.

So Fabbers, (if you are still reading after this long rambling post), any words of wisdom you can offer that can get me moving on this project?

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21 replies

Latest reply was from Niki Lea

cheryle (Dianthus)

(website)

Veteran

A subject about which I have fairly recent experience. I had a new house built and we redesigned the kitchen a few times before construction and then spent a fair bit of time selecting finishes.

For a kitchen, I think function takes slight precedence over form. Think about how you use the kitchen and go from there. We added both an island and a breakfast bar. We also added a substantial amount of cupboards.

I did the same thing as you and cut out every kitchen picture that appealed to me and put them in a folder. It was quite random initially. Then I went through them and picked out the favorite 10 or so. I reviewed them and determined what it was that appealed to me in each. I also thought about what didn't work in my last kitchen to ensure I didn't repeat that mistake.

Think about how much cabinet space you need and then add a few. I wanted to have pot drawers because they are very handy. I keep all of my dishes in a large pot drawer across from the dishwasher so I can take clean dishes and put them away without taking a step. I also wanted to have a mix of drawers and doors on the bottoms. In my last home, I purchased custom pull-out shelves to convert doors to drawers and retain the look of doors. This would likely work style-wise for your period home. It makes them much more functional without impacting the style.

I was concerned about using cabinets that might end up of an era. I look at pictures of homes in our area that were built in the late 90s and all of them have light to mid-tone oak cabinets. The next decade was the decade of medium maple and it was everywhere. Both were very nice but I didn't want to go with the trend for my kitchen since cabinets and countertops are expensive. I went with white cabinets and a dark brown island in simple design. I chose a countertop that I loved and let it be the star of the kitchen and am glad I did. If something speaks to you, go with it but then play down the rest of the finishes to let it shine.

I will try to add a few pics later.

Pat_P

I would go back to the designer and have a frank discussion of your needs/budget. If he or she is not receptive, you can work with someone else! Also, I would consider interviewing contractors and selecting one sooner rather than later. The good ones are usually booked months in advance. In addition, your contractor can make lots of suggestions on your design and can help you anticipate problems. (My husband and I have remodeled kitchen and bathroom - and it's what he does for a living!) The more advance planning you do, the better. It really helps stay on budget and allows for the unexpected issues that ALWAYS come up.

kkards

Veteran

Dianthus -- yes said it perfectly, i don't want a kitchen that can be dated to a specific decade. in addition, i have a period butlers pantry, so i want/need something that makes the new and the old work together.
Pat -- i will definitely be using a new designer. most of the design firms i'm looking at now are design/build, so i won't have the issue of interviewing/ scheduling contractors, but i do realize that i've got a time issue.

Eliza

Veteran

Are you back to the drawing board and seeking a new design/er? Are you tweaking your previous design? I get the paralysis that can set in with a big, costly project that needs longevity. Just did a gut master bath reno and have done a couple of kitchens, so the following tips come to mind, recognizing that things are different for everyone:

-sticking with big ticket items in more classic forms or fabrications helps eliminate boredom or the fear that the first thought seeing the space would be the year it was done. Usually by the time I am re-modeling, some of my initial favorites have had their big moment.

-countertops are important in a kitchen. If they are "patterned", they require extra effort when coordinating a backsplash, floor tile, even fabrics, etc. Not a reason to avoid pattern if you like it, just a variable.

-try to have a list of priorities/goals that will guide your decisions. I had what turned out to be a pricy contractor :(, a budget that should have covered all bases and help from a designer with the bathroom. At times, people suggested eliminating an element key for resale or for us. In the end, I would not have been happy to be out all the time and $, and not have what I wanted in the bath. So I chose tile that I loved at a good price point, if I liked a pricy sink asked the show room staff to find another be in the same shape at a better price point, eliminated fancy decking, but kept a deep, simple tub, etc. My priorities are reflected in the room, but it functions as a whole. I talked price relentlessly as we visited showrooms. No point in falling in love with the most expensive thing every time.

-remember there is more than one place to get everything. Ask around for good sources. I needed lots of storage added and was surprised when the best price came from a custom woodworker who worked alone.

You are well on your way with all your ideas and knowing what worked and what didn't from your original design. Think functional layout for kitchens, so storage of pots is near the stove, etc. That will up your happiness factors at the end. I like lots of drawers in kitchens and very few "black hole" bottom cabinets where space is not well utilized and stuff is had to find. My favorite kitchen upgrade was moving from a shallow double bowl sink to a deep, single bowl sink.

Good luck with this project.
-

Gaylene

Veteran

I designed our kitchen when we built our custom home two decades ago, with a minor remodel (counter tops, tile, appliances, paint) a few years ago. Most people are surprised when they learn its age because the design still looks very current.

My tip would to use images for inspiration but avoid trying to copy a "look". I think that the reason so many kitchen get tied to an era is because of the "lemming" effect. Figuring out what works for you and your house takes more effort, but pays off in the long run.

I'd start with a floor plan to map out work zones for prepping, storage, cooking, and the like--taking into consideration the number of people who will be working in the kitchen at the same time. Then imagine yourself working in each zone, figuring out where you'd put shopping bags, washed produce, hot skillets, pots and pans that needed to be washed, and the like. Think of sight lines if you have kids to keep an eye on or if you will be entertaining guests who may want to hover around. Decide where it would be handy to store items that your family will frequently use like glasses and dishes. Figure out a location for the coffee machine and cereal boxes, for baking cookies with the kids, for prepping and serving dishes when entertaining-- in short, how YOU will be using the kitchen.

Once you've figured out out what works for you, then I'd find a designer who listens and will work with your ideas. Be open to suggestions but remember that ultimately you will be the person who will be working in that kitchen so stick to your vision, not the designer's or the builder's. Pick out appliances and finishes that make sense to you and that you like to look at, always remembering that you'll be the one who has to clean the stove and wipe off grunge from handles and cabinets. Don't assume that what works for another person will work for you; just like in fashion, buying something because it looks good on your friend doesn't guarantee it will look good on you. Some people like to fill their kitchen with lots of storage, while other prefer to keep things light and airy; in my opinion, well-planned storage trumps size and volume every time--a small, well thought out space can be much more functional than a huge kitchen with rows of cabinets and drawers.

Kitchens are an important space so spend money on getting the bones right. Appliances, counters, tiling, sinks and taps, and paint are the icing on the cake, but all of those can be easily swapped out, so, if you have to economize, that's the place to do it.

elpgal

Veteran

Ikea has a kitchen design tool you can play with to get started. I would also tour some open houses that advertise updated kitchens for ideas.

pil

Veteran

If you haven't already, look at the kitchen forum on gardenweb.com
We've been thinking about redoing our kitchen for a couple of years now and I find myself on that forum when the kitchen is on my mind.

DonnaF

Veteran

I totally agree with pil!!! In addition to the kitchen forum on ths.gardenweb.com, check out the appliance forum.

Our two bedroom house was built in the late 1920s, and we have a small kitchen so when we remodeled, functionality was a primary concern. We also wanted to retain a vintage feel.

There are kitchen designers and there are kitchen designers. The best ones are Certified Kitchen Designers (CKDs), and the best money I've ever spent was the hour consultation for one (I think) recommended on the aforementioned Kitchen Forum. She was not associated with a cabinet line or anything else, and in her prior life she was a Home Economics teacher or something along those lines. She helped us think outside the box: We have a tiny corner cabinet in our breakfast nook that is too small for almost anything. It turns out that it is perfect to store our silverware (in mugs) on the open shelf, our glassware in the upper cabinet, and our cloth napkins in the lower cabinet. She also suggested extra shelves so that our cabinets would hold more, and using turntables/lazy susans to store bottles and wine glasses fairly high up yet make the accessible. Since our home is small, we opted for a 24" Miele dishwasher because it would give us 6" more cabinet space; best decision ever!!!

Drawers, drawers, drawers in frameless cabinets. One step so much better than pull-out drawers. We even have a full height drawer under our (best ever due to capacity!) hexagonal Blanco sink. It holds our tall trash can and everything else.

Note: Our painted Brookhaven cabinets have a seven year warranty. I swear, they started chipping after 7 yrs + 1 day.

Cabinets, counters, flooring, tiling, etc. is a bit like clothing style. I am a bit RATE, and DH (the cook) is a bit sloppy and not at all careful. We have soapstone counters so never need to use hot pads -- but soapstone corners get tiny chips and a few scratches. They are like old faded jeans. . . .and shiny granite would not go with our house or with our family, but YMMV.

qfbrenda

Veteran

I haven't remodeled a kitchen so I can't speak from personal experience. But I have a friend who is trying to sell her custom-made home with a mostly high-end kitchen and have learned much from her on what to avoid.

Beware the super high-end appliances! Not only are they very expensive to buy, they are also very expensive to repair. My friend put in a huge gas stove/oven that was $10,000+ brand new that worked well for several years. But when it broke, it was almost impossible for her to 1) find anyone willing to fix it, and 2) find the $$$$$ to fix it. The repair cost was $3000+. She couldn't just pick up a used stove for cheap to replace it temporarily because the kitchen was built around it, so fixing it was required. I could buy 2 brand new replacements of my stove for that price and have money left over. It's not that cheaper is always better, but I hate to see people backed into a corner with appliances that are so expensive they can't really afford to operate them long term. So make sure to count the cost... not only upfront costs, but repair costs as well.

My friend is now living in a small, simple home using a stove that was bought used and could be replaced easily with a stove from a garage sale if she really had to do that while she saved for a better one.

Anonymous

Old buildings can be a mine field of issues but you know this. We buffered the cost of a complete (to the studs) remodel of a 1905 house by 20-25% and used every bit of the extra money.

My advice would be to work out the function first. Nothing worse than having something pretty that you can't use! Find elements in the rest of the house that are found in every room (or nearly) that you like. Use these elements as design starting points. Think about kitchens you like and blend it with the elements you find in the house. For example, I am drawn to clean, simple, white kitchens. Our first house was a old Tudor with ornate woodwork and glass door knobs. Not really my style. When we did the kitchen we kept everything pretty clean and utilitarian but we continued the dark ornate woodwork for all the trim, used miniature glass knobs on the cabinets, and matched the oak floors to the rest of the house. Small elements but it really tied the kitchen to the rest of the house. My love of white kitchens is still going strong and we now have the most hideous 50's yellow ranch kitchen in our current house. If we ever get to the remodel, the kitchen will be white but I will repeat the clean lines that are found in the rest of the house. It would be silly and most likely would date the kitchen to go ultramodern, Tuscany rustic, or craftsman woodwork.

Have fun with it and find someone who will work with you!

Debra

Veteran

Drawers, and lots of them for all storage I recently renovated my kitchen and I love them.
Easy access to everything

rabbit

Veteran

I haven't remodeled a kitchen anytime recently, but I echo what qfbrenda says about the cost of repairs and high end appliances.

My brother-in-law bought a house with a vintage high end gas stove. It was part of the attraction of the house for them. Within a month though the handle/latch thing that held the oven door closed failed. While they searched for a replacement they couldn't use the oven. They finally found the handle, but getting it installed and paying for it cost several hundred dollars.

kkards

Veteran

Fabbers, i knew i could count on you for advice and suggestions! my actual working kitchen space is quite small, but as usually its just me in the kitchen, it's not a problem. thinking it thru, right now by biggest need is not more storage space, but more countertop room, so if will keep that in mind as move forward.
Pil and DonnaF, yes, i've found gardenweb to be a full of good ideas, i just wish it was as user friendly as YLF. i've been spoiled by this forum! and Donna, what a great way to think about soapstone, which is one on the top of my list as a want.

Echo

Veteran

This may be a foolish question, but does any insurance money come into play here because the damage was caused by a neighbor's malfunctioning appliance? Not that insurance money would cover the cost of a full remodel, of course, but every dollar helps when you are anticipating higher costs due to the age of the building.

JAileen

Veteran

I got pull out shelves everywhere. Nothing is lost anymore!

DonnaF

Veteran

Other favorite things:

Tapmaster: It's a thingy that enables you to turn on and turn off your water by kicking a place in your baseboard. It works via water pressure and is made by a Canadian company. Not too expensive. Nice when you have icky hands cuz it keeps the faucet from getting icky. Makes guests think you can operate your water by magic.

Instant Hot: We use it to warm up coffee and tea mugs, to soak crusted on gunk in pots and pans, for jello, moisten cleaning cloths, and as a second faucet when the cook is using the main one on the other corner of the sink.

As to counter space issue: We went with a narrower refrigerator to get more space next to the stove, have tubular Ikea shelves (Grundtal?) above the sink and adjacent counters to serve as a dish drainer so eliminated that space sucking item, hang knives on a magnet to eliminate a knife block, and keep the microwave and toaster oven on a cart below a bookcase. If we had more room in our breakfast nook, we would keep the MW and toaster oven there as it would be closer to the point of use, i.e., where we eat. When we redid our kitchen, we flipped the location of the dishwasher from the right to the left of the sink so it gave DH a bigger run of space next to the knives and the DW became closer to dish storage. The 24" run directly above the DW is considered to be the minimum for functionality, and it is sufficient for my work space to put together my steel cut oat recipe, fill our Bialetti or make filtered coffee, etc.

Oh! And for additional potential counter usage, we have a counter height Boos butcher block table to eat on in our breakfast nook. About the only time it gets used as a counter is during holidays. The additional height gives us a better view out of our windows.

kkards

Veteran

Echo, yes, there was some insurance money, split between myself and the upstairs neighbors. if i'm careful, it will cover the appliances.
DonnaF, love the idea of the tap master, hadn't thought of that. i'm looking at European brands of fridges, since they seem to be smaller than most american brands, so that should give me more counter space.
QFBrenda and Rabbit -- if money was no object, now or later, I'd get vintage (or at least vintage) looking appliances, but i have to be realistic, so i'm looking a mid range appliances. also, since i don't like stainless, i'm looking for fridge and dishwasher brands that have the ability to put a cabinet cover on.

Thistle

Veteran

You already have tons and tons of fab advice.

I had a kitchen remodel, and it was a disaster. Our contractor was awful. So bad, in fact, a few years after they did our remodel, they moved across town and changed their name with no references their old name.

So, the only good piece of advice I can give you is to look for a well established contractor. No matter how excellent your concept, execution (and timely execution at that) is critical.

KikiG

Veteran

In terms of function, most people will benefit from hiring a design professional.

I was my own design professional when I did a tear down to the studs remodel several years back, and again when I recently updated an existing kitchen with new counters and backsplash. I had done months and months of research and planning before I ever sat down with the guy at the cabinet store with the cabinet planning program. Some thoughts:

*drawers are beyond awesome. I had big drawers for pots and pans. I had a wide, shallow drawer for kitchen gadgets, and you could see everything, laid out like surgical instruments. I wish I had more lower drawers, and fewer cabinets.

*under cabinet lights are awesome; go LED. Plan for this on the front end.

*consider that you are only going to get older, and in the future, it may not be convenient to scale ladders or sit on the floor and dig around in a cabinet.

*in terms of what the kitchen looks like, consider this blogger and color consultant, who is a client of Angie's! http://www.mariakillam.com/ I think she is spot on with her analysis of color trends and the way she talks about choices for hard surfaces. I have a friend whose early 90's house has a trendy, early 80's kitchen--because that was what the older lady had seen and thought was nice: Mauve kitchen countertops. Even if you never intend to move and only have yourself to please, you might not be pleased to know your kitchen was out of trend when you care about trends in clothing.

rachylou

Veteran

rachylou's short response:
To get going, I'd take a single sheet of paper. Sketch a layout and list some wants. Attach one picture that you think best sums up a style you like that also fits with your house. Start investigating contractors.

rachylou's long response (hehe):
I'd go for setting aside 20% of my budget for surprises. Actually, I'd go higher than that, maybe 30%... and the budget number I'd give to my contractor would actually be 60% of my real budget... and it should be clear that's got to cover materials and labour, including his labour, architectural plans, etc.

Also, you have to be on top of permitting and the costs associated with permit requirements.

My mum has embarked on a kitchen redo. Her house is a few years shy of 100. She tells me this is *my* kitchen, because I'm *the baker,* so I've been tasked with this and that. One of the things I think important is to stay in character with the house. Ignoring that and going with what's cool is, I think, one way to bring on feelings of having made a mistake or getting something that will date quickly. Poggenpohl, for example, is awesome in my opinion. I think it would be a bad surprise in my mum's Arts & Crafts house.

Counter heights and widths are also important, plus the space between counter and overhead cabinets. So, *like,* even tho this is *my* kitchen, this is my mum's opportunity to finally have a counter appropriate for her ergonomically.

And that's something else... you want to think about getting old in your kitchen and the future electronic load on your wiring system from your kitchen.

Well, anyways, I have lots more opinions as *the baker.* My preferences are all for a hard-working kitchen... and it's not my belief they suit the home cook and kitchen. Like, I'd want all open shelves and the ability to just grab pans. I'd want a galley kitchen - pantry, fridge, sink, stove all in a line. Very efficient. Counter tops, I'd want butcher block, marble, and something like quartz by the sink or stove.

Home kitchen - eh - most I know really love a giant island, not a galley. People like to mill around in a circle; it's warm and friendly. A unified look is more important than a variety of work surfaces. Cabinets and doors and drawers are nicer... they keep the dust off pots and pans, which don't see as much use. Electric stoves safer.

I also, for all I like Poggenpohl, don't really like stainless steel. Difficult work surface and the flu lives forever on stainless steel.

Niki Lea

Veteran

We gutted 75% of our 100+ year old house in 2012 and the kitchen was actually the smoothest part of the job. But, that's because (like you) we used a designer and worked out most of the kinks before installation.

If there are elements of the design you're not happy with now, you won't learn to love them. I would be very frank with the woman who is helping you and ask her to come up with solution/options to make you happy. You're shelling out too much money on this project to only feel satisfied with the design - you need to love it!

You might find Maria Killam's blog to be a good source of info on this topis. She has all sorts of design advice, including how to pick finished that will keep your kitchen from looking dated really quickly. Here's a link to a whole bunch of articles on her blog to get you started:

https://www.google.com/search?.....gws_rd=ssl

This is one of my favourite blog posts of hers:

http://www.mariakillam.com/are.....ay-or-nay/