A non-political observation from last night's debate - YouLookFab Forum

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A non-political observation from last night's debate

April

Veteran

This is etiquette, not politics.

It seems that neither the male candidate nor the male moderator from last night's debate ever learned a rule that was ironclad in my home growing up: NEVER use the word "she" or "her" about a woman who is physically present. (I think we've discussed this before on YLF.)

This rule was broken so often in last night's debate, it was almost more than I could bear.

Is there a similar rule about not using "he" and "him"? I think I avoid those instinctively as well because it just seems rude when the person is present, but the rule I learned was that it applied to feminine pronouns. Because that was in the days of quill pens and hoop skirts.

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25 replies

Latest reply was from Jules

RobinF

Veteran

Agree! That has always been a pet peeve of my husband's (our kids get the stink-eye if they do it, and they do of course) toward everyone, male or female, and we both noticed it last night. I never thought of it as a rule. It just is rude to talk about someone as if they aren't right there.

JAileen

Veteran

I never knew of any rule, but I do think it's rude to talk about someone when they're right there. "I can hear you."

I had to take a shower after the debate.

Liz

Veteran

I never heard of any rule (and it seems odd that it would be about women and not also about men). But of course it just seems like basic courtesy not to talk in generic ways about people who are in the room.

Anonymous

I have never heard of that rule, but I wholeheartedly agree!

Anonymous

I grew up in a very manner-conscious household, but I confess I have never heard this rule, and didn't even notice they were doing this last night. I think there were so many more awful things being thrown out into the airwaves that that faux pas went right over my head. I agree about the shower, JAIleen!

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

Yes, that's an obnoxious thing to do. But it's also hard to speak about your opponent when said opponent is standing right next to you, regardless of whether you use a pronoun or the person's name.

Another non-political--and fashion-related!-- observation: In the first debate, Trump wore a blue tie and Clinton a red pantsuit. In the second, Trump wore a red tie and Clinton a navy pantsuit. Do they coordinate their attire so they don't show up matching inadvertently? And, what will each wear for round three?

rachylou

Veteran

Maybe that's why, in a related way, I found it odd the way Trump would say *the* African Americans and *the* Hispanics. Strangely objectifying. Or like there weren't lots of people sitting all around him just a few feet away. Like he'd have to go to the moon to find some people. Is that a linguistic idiosyncrasy or a glitch in perception?

Also: I've never heard the rule stated that way, but rather as 'don't talk about someone as if they're not there.' The queen/king uses the third person to refer to her/himself - but this is with regard to self only.

Anonymous

Firecracker, that's a very keen observation. I think their wardrobe people must certainly coordinate on this. Quel horror if they both showed up in the same color!

Rachylou, don't royalty use the "royal we," i.e. second person? As in, "We are not amused" (said in a haughty tone).

(Sorry, I'm getting off the subject here.)

rachylou

Veteran

Oh you're right! Brain glitch!! Never mind. Hehe

minimalist

Veteran

Yes, I grew up with that rule, but for both genders. (The world was binary, then, or at least labels were.) Even in writing, for example a letter to grandparents, we were encouraged to use names frequently rather than relying solely on pronouns.

As language goes, I'm finding it a shame that one candidate's family member is being criticized for her choice of blouse, simply because of its name. As if she isn't going through enough already. :-/

Echo

Veteran

I, too, grew up being taught to never refer to someone in the third person when they are present, and it applied to men as well as women. But I also agree that a debate is an unusual situation because it is difficult to discuss someone else's ideas when they are present as a general rule. This rule is also broken at awards ceremonies where they honour someone for an achievement, though, and I am sure no offense is intended in those situations, either.

And I agree regarding the blouse, but given how carefully scripted and planned EVERYTHING in those situations tends to be, it probably should have been foreseeable. Again, that doesn't excuse it, but it does make me wonder which handler dropped the ball on that issue. As for what she's going through, deals with the devil tend to be tough to fulfill. There was no secret about the type of man he was even then.

April

Veteran

The rule would be to use the person's name and never "she." (As I said, we weren't taught to avoid "he" as well, but those were more sexist days, so let's assume we're now talking about both.)

The correct thing to do when saying something brutally abusive would have been for Mr. Trump to avoid saying, "She did thus and such," and to say "Mrs. Clinton did thus and such," instead. That can get awkward, but it is nevertheless the polite thing to do.

Of course, it would have been far more polite and correct to avoid all brutally abusive statements in the first place.

Anonymous

What was the deal with Melania Trump's blouse? There was an article that said she deliberately wore a "pu**y bow." I never knew that was another term for tie neck or bow tie, though. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I very seriously doubt she did that on purpose. If she did, I was too clueless to pick up on it.

RobinF

Veteran

Firecracker, I was thinking that too, about the colors they wear. Maybe they do coordinate.

I never heard anything about Melania's blouse, I didn't think most people even know that is the name for the bow blouse (and I'm thinking it is going to drop out of usage even more now!).

Anonymous

Hm, yes, was Melania trying to tell us something? She didn't look very happy.

Sal

Veteran

We had that rule too April, if anyone did that my Grandmother used to say, "Who is she, the cat's mother?"

I did not watch the debate as we were on holiday and I wanted to enjoy myself haha.

April

Veteran

KG/Sally -- my mother says that to this day. Any idea what it means? I've never known, but she says it every time. Her mother, my grandmother, said it before her, so I always assumed it was a British expression.

anne

Veteran

Politicians here (in Australia) definitely refer to each other by name rather than pronoun, even more than is usually done in everyday speech.

That expression is one my MIL uses too.(whose Australian, not British) but I certainly knew it before I met her.

I pull my children up for saying "she" or "he" - at least when they are initially bringing up a topic.

April

Veteran

Is this is cultural (Australian and British Isles) practice? Or is it a general rule of etiquette? I don't know where everyone is from, so when others are saying that they were also raised with this rule, I don't know if there are UK echoes in their upbringing, as there were in mine.

I don't, for example, recall my dad -- whose background was more German than English -- telling us not to use "she" in front of my mother, but that could have been because he was always working and just wasn't around much.

Kristin SF

Veteran

My mother would often respond with "Who is "she"?" But she never added the "cat's mother" part.

She was born in the US to 2 Irish immigrant parents.

anne

Veteran

And I should have written 'who's'.

Marilyn

Veteran

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine. My mother in law would always refer to me as "she" when I was present. It comes across like you're being talked about as if you aren't' there but you are.

chadya

Veteran

we can't say pussy anymore or is PC running amuck

The term for the style of blouse is a "pussy bow"

chadya

Veteran

who is she cat's mother?
is indeed is a British expression

needs a northern accent to get the proper effect I think

Jules

Veteran

I wasn't taught this rule (but my parents pretty much didn't believe in teaching manners - a hippy rebellion thing I think, and a choice I disagree with). But it's something I've caught on to via reactions and corrections I've gotten, so I try to be mindful and correct myself when I slip because I'm not looking to offend anyone. I personally think the distinction between using the pronoun and using the person's name is a bit arbitrary, as both are the third person. I get how being referred to as "she" constantly, as if not present would be rude, but I don't think I was ever using it that way, and for me without the childhood training it's more natural to slip between proper name and pronoun like I would in writing. To me it's pretty obvious when one is doing to be rude and when it's just a shortcut.
Agreed however that most presidential candidates would use better conventional manners especially in a fomal debate.